Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-10-2013, 10:26 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:52 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  The value of human life is not a personal moral standard. If it were, murder would not be illegal.
I disagree. Murder is illegal because most of society members don't want to be murdered, so we outlaw it. It is dangerous to us.

Murder is a violation of an agreed-upon "right to life" - but almost all societies say that a "right to life" is not universal. Cf war and capital punishment.

(09-10-2013 12:52 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Viability is as close as we can get to an objective determination of when the fetus has some rights as an independent life.
Who is it that determines rights?

Society.

(like, y'know?)

(09-10-2013 12:52 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  When do you think the fetus is its own life?
The moment of conception

That in its own right is not particularly well-defined. When exactly does conception occur? Penetration by a sperm? Penetration by the fertilizing sperm? Fertilization itself? Duplication? Implantation?

Now, incidentally, however one defines 'conception' the thing in question is most assuredly not a fetus. It is a zygote. It is subsequently (~7 divisions) an embryo (in blastula and gastrula stages...). It is only much later (10 weeks!) a fetus...

Do the very large fraction of "conceptions" which subsequently spontaneously abort inform your view at all?

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
It is very simple. I am existing life and you have no right whatsoever to use my body and mind and risk my life against my will to produce unwanted offspring.

You can do that to cattle, but not to humans.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 04:54 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I think she's not obligated even to her partner to keep the baby
(08-10-2013 03:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That is exactly why men, unless they have a vested interest, such as in responsible in part by causing a pregnancy, should frankly shut the fuck up and keep their opinion to themselves.

Now I'm pretty pro-choice, but I'd like to share this.

My brother in law recently split with his girlfriend with which he had been seeing for quite a long time. They got pregnant, despite taking precautions.
She didn't want to have the baby, he did. Now, ultimately it is her choice. She has one child and he has three. They both have experience with children and the baby would have been well cared for. He even offered to take care of the baby and let her leave with no responsibility. After all, this potential life is half his.

She completely disregarded his feelings, had an abortion and split.

And it broke his fucking heart. There is nothing he can do about it.

I know this is anecdotal to you all and therefore easily dismissed, but it is close to my heart and so I have to factor it into the equation.

Sometimes it's not just as simple as "it's my body so fuck off". Sometimes it involves more than that.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 04:54 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I think she's not obligated even to her partner to keep the baby
(08-10-2013 03:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That is exactly why men, unless they have a vested interest, such as in responsible in part by causing a pregnancy, should frankly shut the fuck up and keep their opinion to themselves.

Now I'm pretty pro-choice, but I'd like to share this.

My brother in law recently split with his girlfriend with which he had been seeing for quite a long time. They got pregnant, despite taking precautions.
She didn't want to have the baby, he did. Now, ultimately it is her choice. She has one child and he has three. They both have experience with children and the baby would have been well cared for. He even offered to take care of the baby and let her leave with no responsibility. After all, this potential life is half his.

She completely disregarded his feelings, had an abortion and split.

And it broke his fucking heart. There is nothing he can do about it.

I know this is anecdotal to you all and therefore easily dismissed, but it is close to my heart and so I have to factor it into the equation.

Sometimes it's not just as simple as "it's my body so fuck off". Sometimes it involves more than that.

Well, we don't know anything about this so we don't know what may have prompted her to act the way she did.

Maybe she didn't agree that he was a good father. Maybe she did it as an act of revenge. We don't know, and you only know you love your bro, but you still don't know what went down between them behind closed doors. Sometimes you'd be surprised...

I think in such cases there should be couple counseling available. This sort of situation needs to be discussed with clear minds, and not in the heat of a relationship split. Children, born or unborn, should never be used as bargaining chips of any kind, or as a means to revenge. Unfortunately this happens all the time in divorces...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
09-10-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Murder is a violation of an agreed-upon "right to life" - but almost all societies say that a "right to life" is not universal. Cf war and capital punishment.
No, I disagree.
A society comes together and creates rules (laws). I guess many people think these rules are set for various purposes.
You might think they are set to protect "rights"
I think the only defined rights here are the "legal rights" and these only become into existence one the law is already passed. Law creates legal rights it does not protect "rights"
As a group we create laws because we want a safe and stable society. We don't want to be murdered, we don't want our stuff stolen, we don't want to be assaulted etc.

(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:52 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Who is it that determines rights?

Society.
The government, hopefully as representatives of society create legal rights.
But just "rights" on its own. That is nonsense. The next best ruleset we have are the laws of nature. e.g. We can't travel faster than the speed of light.


(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:52 AM)Stevil Wrote:  The moment of conception

That in its own right is not particularly well-defined. When exactly does conception occur? Penetration by a sperm? Penetration by the fertilizing sperm? Fertilization itself? Duplication? Implantation?

Now, incidentally, however one defines 'conception' the thing in question is most assuredly not a fetus. It is a zygote. It is subsequently (~7 divisions) an embryo (in blastula and gastrula stages...). It is only much later (10 weeks!) a fetus...

Do the very large fraction of "conceptions" which subsequently spontaneously abort inform your view at all?
Lets say the point where the double helix is formed and the cells start to divide and multiply.
Yeah, about 50% of those natually abort, so what? there is also a percentage that we choose to abort, so what. It seems that most humans die before 80 years of age, does that mean they disqualify as being human?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 12:19 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  you still don't know what went down between them behind closed doors. Sometimes you'd be surprised...

Dammit, Dom. Stop being so rational, I'm trying to appeal to emotion here! Angry

You're right, but I feel there is a point to be considered there...

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:19 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  you still don't know what went down between them behind closed doors. Sometimes you'd be surprised...

Dammit, Dom. Stop being so rational, I'm trying to appeal to emotion here! Angry

You're right, but I feel there is a point to be considered there...

The father is definitely a point to consider. If he is able and willing to raise the child, and to support financially and emotionally and care for the mom during pregnancy, then they should, as reasonable human beings, arrive at a deal.

But, like I mentioned, unfortunately in break ups, both born and unborn children tend to become pawns. So much trouble is heaped on children during many divorces.. they get pushed and pulled and their poor little minds get contaminated by either or both parties - that has always made me angry.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Murder is a violation of an agreed-upon "right to life" - but almost all societies say that a "right to life" is not universal. Cf war and capital punishment.
No, I disagree.
A society comes together and creates rules (laws). I guess many people think these rules are set for various purposes.
You might think they are set to protect "rights"
I think the only defined rights here are the "legal rights" and these only become into existence one the law is already passed. Law creates legal rights it does not protect "rights"

Indeed. And, uh, that's just as I said, as it happens...

(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Lets say the point where the double helix is formed and the cells start to divide and multiply.

Absurdly arbitrary, of course; but then, all such definitions necessarily would be.

(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yeah, about 50% of those natually abort, so what? there is also a percentage that we choose to abort, so what.

So what indeed.

(I mean, you're the one who has a problem with it Tongue )

(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems that most humans die before 80 years of age, does that mean they disqualify as being human?

I was just wondering if you'd given it any thought. It does make the "but it might live" argument ridiculous.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Now I'm pretty pro-choice, but I'd like to share this.

My brother in law recently split with his girlfriend with which he had been seeing for quite a long time. They got pregnant, despite taking precautions.
She didn't want to have the baby, he did. Now, ultimately it is her choice. She has one child and he has three. They both have experience with children and the baby would have been well cared for. He even offered to take care of the baby and let her leave with no responsibility. After all, this potential life is half his.

She completely disregarded his feelings, had an abortion and split.

And it broke his fucking heart. There is nothing he can do about it.

I know this is anecdotal to you all and therefore easily dismissed, but it is close to my heart and so I have to factor it into the equation.

Sometimes it's not just as simple as "it's my body so fuck off". Sometimes it involves more than that.

I agree 100%. This is why I said earlier that I don't believe this is just a "woman's body, woman's choice" issue. Sure it's your body, but it's also a potential life and has just as much impact on the life of the father. It should be his decision too. But again, there are a million reasons why a woman wouldn't feel comfortable/obligated to allow him to be involved in that decision. Maybe she doesn't feel he deserves it. Maybe she doesn't want to abandon her rights to a living child. Maybe she doesn't want him to come back later and nail her for child support (because he can, no matter what is agreed upon or promised). In these situations, I think it may be better not to tell the father at all. That doesn't feel right to say, and I can't imagine ever getting pregnant and not discussing it with the father, but it may well be in his best interest. :shrug:

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:55 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:19 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Dammit, Dom. Stop being so rational, I'm trying to appeal to emotion here! Angry

You're right, but I feel there is a point to be considered there...

The father is definitely a point to consider. If he is able and willing to raise the child, and to support financially and emotionally and care for the mom during pregnancy, then they should, as reasonable human beings, arrive at a deal.

But, like I mentioned, unfortunately in break ups, both born and unborn children tend to become pawns. So much trouble is heaped on children during many divorces.. they get pushed and pulled and their poor little minds get contaminated by either or both parties - that has always made me angry.

They should arrive at a deal. She didn't want to. Not a fair situation. She knew as well as anyone that he would make a get father. This is evidenced by your second point here. He just recently won a long, drawn out, psychologically and financially exhausting custody case for his current children based on how his ex has behaved. But that's beside the point.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: