Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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09-10-2013, 01:56 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 04:54 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I think she's not obligated even to her partner to keep the baby
(08-10-2013 03:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That is exactly why men, unless they have a vested interest, such as in responsible in part by causing a pregnancy, should frankly shut the fuck up and keep their opinion to themselves.

Now I'm pretty pro-choice, but I'd like to share this.

My brother in law recently split with his girlfriend with which he had been seeing for quite a long time. They got pregnant, despite taking precautions.
She didn't want to have the baby, he did. Now, ultimately it is her choice. She has one child and he has three. They both have experience with children and the baby would have been well cared for. He even offered to take care of the baby and let her leave with no responsibility. After all, this potential life is half his.

She completely disregarded his feelings, had an abortion and split.

And it broke his fucking heart. There is nothing he can do about it.

I know this is anecdotal to you all and therefore easily dismissed, but it is close to my heart and so I have to factor it into the equation.

Sometimes it's not just as simple as "it's my body so fuck off". Sometimes it involves more than that.

I have been working on how to word this, but fuck it.

You brother-in-law needs to suck it up. They weren't trying to get pregnant, it was an accident.

And now he's all "boo-hoo" over an accidental bunch of cells? After a break-up? Romantic nonsense.

He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Ah, remember when women went to the back of vans to get that metallic coat hanger shoved up their uterus to remove an unwanted pregnancy? Remember when that van drove off as the woman was bleeding to death at the curb of a dark alleyway because the "procedure" went wrong? Expect that to go up if you want abortions to become illegal in your area. It still happens even to this day, sadly. Wrap your mind around the fact that you actually have to be okay with that type of an event happening again and again and again.

The problem that comes with the want of all women around the globe to carry babies to full term is that one also has to be okay with stuff like this happening. And that's just one example out of thousands of things that can go horribly wrong. It's an age old practice, abortion. Not too long ago science stepped in to minimize the health risks towards women.

It's not only religion that likes to impose its wills on others in cruel ways. You know how that's done? By willful ignorance - willfully not considering the whole but only key concepts that don't even begin to scratch the surface.

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09-10-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 01:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, I disagree.
A society comes together and creates rules (laws). I guess many people think these rules are set for various purposes.
You might think they are set to protect "rights"
I think the only defined rights here are the "legal rights" and these only become into existence one the law is already passed. Law creates legal rights it does not protect "rights"

Indeed. And, uh, that's just as I said, as it happens...
Well no.

You were saying that law is created to protect rights, but now you are agreeing that law creates rights. If you hold onto both these positions then this is a circular position.

(09-10-2013 01:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Lets say the point where the double helix is formed and the cells start to divide and multiply.

Absurdly arbitrary, of course; but then, all such definitions necessarily would be.
Not arbitrary. The full DNA structure is formed. It isn't prior to this, thus prior it doesn't represent a unique individual. And it is growing, before that (without growth) can it be deemed as alive?

(09-10-2013 01:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yeah, about 50% of those natually abort, so what? there is also a percentage that we choose to abort, so what.

So what indeed.

(I mean, you're the one who has a problem with it Tongue )
What is it that I have a problem with?

(09-10-2013 01:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems that most humans die before 80 years of age, does that mean they disqualify as being human?

I was just wondering if you'd given it any thought. It does make the "but it might live" argument ridiculous.
That isn't my argument.
My argument is:
I agree that it is a human. I agree that abortion is purposefully killing a human. But it is not my concern because it doesn't endanger me nor does it endanger my society. The unborn can't fight for itself, very few people are willing to put themselves in harms way to protect the unborn, thus we don't need the government to interfere.
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09-10-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 01:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Now I'm pretty pro-choice, but I'd like to share this.

My brother in law recently split with his girlfriend with which he had been seeing for quite a long time. They got pregnant, despite taking precautions.
She didn't want to have the baby, he did. Now, ultimately it is her choice. She has one child and he has three. They both have experience with children and the baby would have been well cared for. He even offered to take care of the baby and let her leave with no responsibility. After all, this potential life is half his.

She completely disregarded his feelings, had an abortion and split.

And it broke his fucking heart. There is nothing he can do about it.

I know this is anecdotal to you all and therefore easily dismissed, but it is close to my heart and so I have to factor it into the equation.

Sometimes it's not just as simple as "it's my body so fuck off". Sometimes it involves more than that.

I have been working on how to word this, but fuck it.

You brother-in-law needs to suck it up. They weren't trying to get pregnant, it was an accident.

And now he's all "boo-hoo" over an accidental bunch of cells? After a break-up? Romantic nonsense.

He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does.

Thanks for the terse empathy, buddy.

Shit happens, yeah, yeah. He's over it, it's not really that big of a deal now. I was simply using the situation to make a point.

"He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does"

I dare say you're an ass for saying that. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-10-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  "I don't see why a women can't carry a baby to term".

Women can carry a baby to term. They have a choice.

(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm still very much for abortion in the case of rape and if having the baby will medically effect the mother (besides being pregnant..) in a serious way, ie: death.

I don't understand. Are you in favor of women making decisions all of the time, or only under certain circumstances? Who will choose the circumstances that matter?

Why does the crime of rape legitimize an abortion? Is the pain and difficulty any more far reaching and life long, than that of caring for a child that was as unwanted as a rape?

(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  there is no reason for a women to NOT carry that baby to term when there are loving couples out there looking for babies.

Reason 1: The population of the world is large and filled with the empty lives of millions unable experience even a mediocre quality of life. Adding more people to join their ranks is counterproductive.

Reason 2: More children need to be adopted out, than there are parents to receive them. Adding more children simply isn't helping.

Reason 3: The outrageous expense of adoption make adoption impossible for far too many in the first place.

(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Sex education is everywhere, there are campaigns everywhere regarding "use a condom" and other safe sex things. Condoms are readily available. There's simply no excuse any more.
And so I no longer support the pro-choice arguments.

There is still one very loud excuse. "Its against my religion."

There exist many people determined to remove this easy availability of contraception. They are likewise determined to remove sex education from school and family planning from the community.

(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Fuck me that was long winded.

Tongue

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

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09-10-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:33 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 01:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have been working on how to word this, but fuck it.

You brother-in-law needs to suck it up. They weren't trying to get pregnant, it was an accident.

And now he's all "boo-hoo" over an accidental bunch of cells? After a break-up? Romantic nonsense.

He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does.

Thanks for the terse empathy, buddy.

Shit happens, yeah, yeah. He's over it, it's not really that big of a deal now. I was simply using the situation to make a point.

"He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does"

I dare say you're an ass for saying that. Drinking Beverage

Nope, not an ounce of empathy on this. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope, not an ounce of empathy on this. No

Opinions are like assholes...... Yes

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-10-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 01:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Now I'm pretty pro-choice, but I'd like to share this.

My brother in law recently split with his girlfriend with which he had been seeing for quite a long time. They got pregnant, despite taking precautions.
She didn't want to have the baby, he did. Now, ultimately it is her choice. She has one child and he has three. They both have experience with children and the baby would have been well cared for. He even offered to take care of the baby and let her leave with no responsibility. After all, this potential life is half his.

She completely disregarded his feelings, had an abortion and split.

And it broke his fucking heart. There is nothing he can do about it.

I know this is anecdotal to you all and therefore easily dismissed, but it is close to my heart and so I have to factor it into the equation.

Sometimes it's not just as simple as "it's my body so fuck off". Sometimes it involves more than that.

I have been working on how to word this, but fuck it.

You brother-in-law needs to suck it up. They weren't trying to get pregnant, it was an accident.

And now he's all "boo-hoo" over an accidental bunch of cells? After a break-up? Romantic nonsense.

He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does.

Actually you developed from an "accidental bunch of cells".

You fail to deal with the complexity of the issue in any serious manner.

As Reagan once pointed out 'What is interesting about the strong proponents for abortion is the fact that those doing so, had themselves, been born...............
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09-10-2013, 02:49 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 02:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope, not an ounce of empathy on this. No

Opinions are like assholes...... Yes

Yup. Me, you, your brother-in-law, ...

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 02:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Opinions are like assholes...... Yes

Yup. Me, you, your brother-in-law, ...

He's a great dad, and I love the guy. But between you, me and the fencepost, he is kind of an asshole...... Rolleyes

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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