Why I bother....
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12-10-2014, 01:32 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2014 08:13 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
Why I bother....
So in my class history of christianity, again, I have managed to make someone think and reach out, and it means everything to me, it is why I try... Here are the posts from our final week. I will call him "T", and my replies in bold.

Module 8 Free discussion--discuss anything related to the course.

My post for the week:
---------------------------------
Mythology has always fascinated me. When you research mythology, you find the common strains, a rhythm, a philosophical skeletal system where the “hero god” is constructed, and the same system is used time and time again. It is almost as if one borrowed from another throughout time. It is impossible to ignore the implication of systematic fabrication. The jesus story, however, was not original. The entire story seems to have been plagiarized in bits and pieces, and sometimes blatantly intact, from ancient god/man mythology passed down by Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures.

The list is long, from Horus in 3000 BCE Egypt all the way to jesus, but I will focus on just one…Romulus 771 BCE. In Plutarch’s biography of Romulus, the founder of Rome, we are told he was the son of god, born of a virgin; an attempt is made to kill him as a baby, and he is saved, and raised by a poor family, hailed as King, and killed by the conniving elite; that he rises from the dead, appears to a friend to tell the good news to his people, and ascends to heaven to rule from on high. Sound familiar? Just like Jesus.

Plutarch also tells us about annual public ceremonies that were still being formed, which celebrated the day Romulus ascended to heaven. The story goes as follows: at the end of his life, amid rumors he was murdered by conspiracy of the Senate, the sun went dark, and Romulus’s body vanished. The people wanted to search for him but the Senate told them not to, “for he had risen to join the gods”. Most went away happy, hoping for good things from their new god, but “some doubted”. Soon after, Proculus, a close friend of Romulus, reported that he met Romulus “on the road” between Rome and a nearby town and asked him, “why have you abandoned us?”, To which Romulus replied that he had been a God all along but had come down to earth and become incarnate to establish a great kingdom, and now had to return to his home in heaven. Then Romulus told his friend to tell the Romans that if they are virtuous they will have all worldly power (Carrier 56).

Folks, does any of this ring any bells for you? You do realize this story predates Jesus by 800 years right? Fabricators of religion borrow from previous religions Man/God/hero constructs and have all the way back to 3000 B.C.E.

So the fact that the jesus son of god myth story has clearly been plagiarized from older Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures, coupled with the fact that no one who wrote of Jesus actually knew him should make a thinking person take a pause, and reflect on the basis of their faith.

Works cited:

Carrier, Richard. On the historicity of Jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Sheffield, England: Sheffield Phoenix press, 2014. Print.

R/
###########


*his response*

T: That's a powerful statement that you made at the end of your discussion. You have truly made my mind wonder about a lot. Knowledge is power and a lot of people are powerless. I will be looking into this because now I am curious as to know the TRUTH. Christianity only dates back so far and at the beginning Christianity was looked upon as false teaching so what was the religion prior to that. We discussed something similar earlier in this course and topics like these are the best because they will get any mind to start thinking outside of the box.

*my reply*

T,

I cannot tell you how much your reply means to me. This is why I strive to share with others what I have learned in over 30 years of studying religion, specifically christianity. Blind faith does no one any justice. The very reason I went on the road to studying was in an attempt to bolster my faith. I wanted to know the information to be able to shut down the critics. Lo and behold the opposite happened, the more I learned, the less I believed. You can't ignore the obvious. It has been a story told and retold for generations and people take it at face value without even bothering to study its formation. It is like a security blanket with holes all in it, and tattered strings along the edges, from afar it looks solid, well crafted, warm and comforting, up close, you can grab a string, give it a gentle tug, and the whole thing begins to unravel. Pull the string T#####, don't take my opinions or posits, or anyone else's as fact, do your research, discover the truth, evolve beyond the myth. I wish you the best on your journey.

R/
#######


----------------------------------------------------

This is what puts the wind behind my sails, if I can connect with just one person, make them think, plant a few seeds of doubt so that they want to verify, think and study...then they are off and running down the path to enlightenment.

makes it all worthwhile. Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-10-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Your response sounds very familiar to me. Studying to be a better Christian lead me to disbelief. Weird how that happens.
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13-10-2014, 08:13 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 06:35 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Your response sounds very familiar to me. Studying to be a better Christian lead me to disbelief. Weird how that happens.

Yup, it has long been said that the single best book in support of atheism is the bible..

Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-10-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Why I bother....
Why I bother,

From one perspective, the previous myth argument seems to point to Jesus not being who he said he was. However, here are some other thoughts on the topic. Granted from an atheistic point of view, you have to suspend disbelief and accept some Biblical concepts. You're point is that the Jesus story is plagiarism, when in actuality, it's exactly the opposite.

Is Christianity based on previous myths?
If God exists and the Bible is true, then Christ as a person predates human creation. Christianity did not begin with Christ's birth on earth as Jesus. The person of Christ and God's intention to save his children predates humanity and all "myths." This is not a story of a hero fighting evil. There is no fighting with God. This is a story about reconciliation and a father who sacrificed to bring his children out of destruction. It began in our timeline as soon as the original sin occurred and has been playing throughout history. Everything else is the spin-off.

Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war. What else would he do?
Also, humans have known about God for six thousand years. As you point out, many stories are told, retold, changed and told again. This does not preclude an original story from being true.

Thanks,
Tsukho
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13-10-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 03:24 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Why I bother,

From one perspective, the previous myth argument seems to point to Jesus not being who he said he was. However, here are some other thoughts on the topic. Granted from an atheistic point of view, you have to suspend disbelief and accept some Biblical concepts. You're point is that the Jesus story is plagiarism, when in actuality, it's exactly the opposite.

Is Christianity based on previous myths?
If God exists and the Bible is true, then Christ as a person predates human creation. Christianity did not begin with Christ's birth on earth as Jesus. The person of Christ and God's intention to save his children predates humanity and all "myths." This is not a story of a hero fighting evil. There is no fighting with God. This is a story about reconciliation and a father who sacrificed to bring his children out of destruction. It began in our timeline as soon as the original sin occurred and has been playing throughout history. Everything else is the spin-off.

Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war. What else would he do?
Also, humans have known about God for six thousand years. As you point out, many stories are told, retold, changed and told again. This does not preclude an original story from being true.

Thanks,
Tsukho

Ah, special pleading. You guys are hilarious.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-10-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 03:24 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Why I bother,

From one perspective, the previous myth argument seems to point to Jesus not being who he said he was. However, here are some other thoughts on the topic. Granted from an atheistic point of view, you have to suspend disbelief and accept some Biblical concepts. You're point is that the Jesus story is plagiarism, when in actuality, it's exactly the opposite.

Is Christianity based on previous myths?
If God exists and the Bible is true, then Christ as a person predates human creation. Christianity did not begin with Christ's birth on earth as Jesus. The person of Christ and God's intention to save his children predates humanity and all "myths." This is not a story of a hero fighting evil. There is no fighting with God. This is a story about reconciliation and a father who sacrificed to bring his children out of destruction. It began in our timeline as soon as the original sin occurred and has been playing throughout history. Everything else is the spin-off.

Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war. What else would he do?
Also, humans have known about God for six thousand years. As you point out, many stories are told, retold, changed and told again. This does not preclude an original story from being true.

Thanks,
Tsukho

Oh I have many points newbie, perhaps you would like to enter dialogue on it?

THIS point was that the jesus story is anything but original.

Another point is that no one will ever wrote of jesus actually knew him.

Another point is many characters never existed, like adam, eve, noah, moses...and even the jesus son of god myth. Now there were many people that went by the name jesus back then, as it was a popular name, about 1 in 20 actually. So to say jesus didn't exist requires quantification.

Another point is the alleged miracles of jesus didn't happen, we know that because if someone had witnessed those magical events, someone would have written it down...not wait 60-200 years later and have a group of people write it down after the myth has had to time to be exaggerated ten fold by the time it had its 2,000th retelling.

Also, the OT was constructed by Judaen priests about 550 BCE, not by moses or any other mystical creature.

Which god by the way, there are so many... Rolleyes

oh yeah, satan doesn't exist either by the way....neither does hell as per christian doctrine...perhaps you would like an education in your delusion/faith of choice? Is that why you came here? To learn? Excellent, I am in need of a new pupil, sit down...start with what is the basis of your faith?

You mentioned 6,000 years, does that mean you are a young earth creationist like ken ham? lol.....well if that is true the stupid may be too strong for me to help you, but I will try. By the way *whispers* humans have been around a lot longer than 6,000 years, and *gasp* the world is 4.54 billion years old, santa claus doesn't exist, neither does bigfoot or fairies....did I miss anything?

Welcome

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-10-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 03:24 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war.
Tsukho

I can't believe I'm even responding because this troll is like all the rest and won't even stick around for any correspondence. Are you saying your god isn't smart enough to see satan's tactics in advance and is incapable of defending against them? Are you saying your god can't defeat satan? That he can't take the ONE story that is supposed to be the greatest one ever told and change it enough to not replicate the dozens of other hero/savior tales?

To paraphrase my boy Epicurus, then why call him god?

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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13-10-2014, 08:45 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 06:23 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(13-10-2014 03:24 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Why I bother,

From one perspective, the previous myth argument seems to point to Jesus not being who he said he was. However, here are some other thoughts on the topic. Granted from an atheistic point of view, you have to suspend disbelief and accept some Biblical concepts. You're point is that the Jesus story is plagiarism, when in actuality, it's exactly the opposite.

Is Christianity based on previous myths?
If God exists and the Bible is true, then Christ as a person predates human creation. Christianity did not begin with Christ's birth on earth as Jesus. The person of Christ and God's intention to save his children predates humanity and all "myths." This is not a story of a hero fighting evil. There is no fighting with God. This is a story about reconciliation and a father who sacrificed to bring his children out of destruction. It began in our timeline as soon as the original sin occurred and has been playing throughout history. Everything else is the spin-off.

Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war. What else would he do?
Also, humans have known about God for six thousand years. As you point out, many stories are told, retold, changed and told again. This does not preclude an original story from being true.

Thanks,
Tsukho

Oh I have many points newbie, perhaps you would like to enter dialogue on it?

THIS point was that the jesus story is anything but original.

Another point is that no one will ever wrote of jesus actually knew him.

Another point is many characters never existed, like adam, eve, noah, moses...and even the jesus son of god myth. Now there were many people that went by the name jesus back then, as it was a popular name, about 1 in 20 actually. So to say jesus didn't exist requires quantification.

Another point is the alleged miracles of jesus didn't happen, we know that because if someone had witnessed those magical events, someone would have written it down...not wait 60-200 years later and have a group of people write it down after the myth has had to time to be exaggerated ten fold by the time it had its 2,000th retelling.

Also, the OT was constructed by Judaen priests about 550 BCE, not by moses or any other mystical creature.

Which god by the way, there are so many... Rolleyes

oh yeah, satan doesn't exist either by the way....neither does hell as per christian doctrine...perhaps you would like an education in your delusion/faith of choice? Is that why you came here? To learn? Excellent, I am in need of a new pupil, sit down...start with what is the basis of your faith?

You mentioned 6,000 years, does that mean you are a young earth creationist like ken ham? lol.....well if that is true the stupid may be too strong for me to help you, but I will try. By the way *whispers* humans have been around a lot longer than 6,000 years, and *gasp* the world is 4.54 billion years old, santa claus doesn't exist, neither does bigfoot or fairies....did I miss anything?

Welcome

You're kind of like mosquito repellant GWOG, you spray a few facts around and these hit and run theists come out from the woodworks. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-10-2014, 06:52 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Good gravy,

I chummed the waters and the sharks have arrived. It amazes me that the atheistic claim to superior logic and morality always breaks down to sarcasm and name calling. However, I'm sure if one of you posted on a Christian forum, you might get the same. *Sigh, our human condition....*

[WillHop, you said: Are you saying your god isn't smart enough to see Satan's tactics in advance and is incapable of defending against them?] The Bible teaches God is omniscient. He was well aware of Satan and all of history. God doesn't think like us. If we were omniscient, we would simply avoid all the bad things and live in Nirvana. God has different purposes. Allowing Satan to do what he does is part of that.

[You said: Are you saying your god can't defeat Satan?] God allows Satan to do what he does. Popular culture envisions a war between God and Satan, but that's not what the Bible teaches. God is omnipotent. There is no war. God allows Satan to continue for a span of time. True, Satan wars against us, but the idea of him warring against God is like flea warring against a mountain. There is no fight.

[That he can't take the ONE story that is supposed to be the greatest one ever told and change it enough to not replicate the dozens of other hero/savior tales?] Perhaps you missed the point of my post. God and his work predates all of human history. His story is not the copy, it's the original. Satan and mankind's versions are the replications.
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14-10-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: Why I bother....
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