Why I bother....
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15-10-2014, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2014 08:25 AM by CONVERSIONTUBE.)
RE: Why I bother....
ob·jec·tive
əbˈjektiv/Submit
adjective
1.
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Tuksuko, on the question of Objective Morals.

How was it determined that the Bible holds Objective Morals.
It's been a phrase Christians always use. They claim to be more morale because they have the Objective Morals of the Bible. How did they become "Objective" by definition?

The answer is, THEY NEVER WERE OBJECTIVE.

Christians decided Subjectively to claim the Bible was Objective.
Your claims to morals at no time are objective, you had to choose subjectively to hold the bible as an objective truth.

With that in mind, you also lose the moral war with secular humanists who can demonstrate the failures of using the Bible for your morals.

For the moment I won't discuss the failures of the old testament, the Genocide, Murder, Rape, Stoning of Children, treating women as property.

I'll just point out a couple problems with the new testament

1. Infinite Punishment for Finite Crimes. This is the most dreadful idea ever created.

2. The concept of being forgiven for your crimes by a third party and simply by just asking for forgiveness. The idea that a blood sacrifice makes it all better is absurd, and lacking in any moral truth.

You cannot claim your objective morals of the bible are better when these concepts exist in your moral world view.
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15-10-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 01:46 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Timber1025,

Thanks for cutting through the fat. Let me be more plain, and correct me if I'm wrong.

Atheism would hold that we are simply natural creatures, spawned into a universe by accident. In universal context, we have no more meaning than a virus and no greater claim to survival. As far as we can tell from natural science, when we're dead, we're really dead. Morality is simply a set of mutually agreed upon rules for living together, but really have no meaning in and of themselves other than to facilitate society. Laws of physics exists, but laws of morality do not.

If this is so, shouldn't the atheist obey laws and live within society's mores as best helps him, but if he find it's better for him to shed morals, then do that?

Here's where I see the atheist contradiction. The Big Bang, evolution and natural selection is all you have, but you still take umbrage and skirt the point about morality as if it's objective and universal. You said, "If you cannot love your children with evolution being more true than a god, then you are warped and an ignorant twit." But you still haven't answered the question as to why. I can tell you an objective reason why we love our children, but you can't tell me, because you don't have an answer, at least that I've been able to find.

When I research aesthetic morality, all I find is reasoning about building society and living in harmony.

If morality is based around the advancement of our society as the greatest good (and no one can tell me why that is), then we're going about this the wrong way. Let's euthanize the weak, test for the best genes, and create a hive society. No unwanted children, slackers or old people. Or if some guy is smart enough or strong enough to steal your mate, grab your stuff, and push you outside of the circle, well good for him. It's better that he passes on his DNA than you, anyways.

On the other hand, if morality is based around building society as a way to help the individual, then the individual's benefit is paramount. Eat, drink and be merry, because tomorrow may never come. If it turns out better for the individual to take advantage of society instead, then that's not only logical, but perhaps even moral.

Do you see the contradiction in following a system with no moral absolutes, yet then insisting people follow them? Who's being warped now? Why not be intellectually honest and say morals are non-binding constructs people adhere to when trying to live in a society. But that's just their opinion. You can bypass it if you want, just don't get caught, or they might make you pay because you trespassed their personal rules.

I must be missing something. What is it?
Your entire notion of atheism is flawed.
Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a deity. Period.
You took it far from what it actually means.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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15-10-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 02:30 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Grasshopper and many others,

If we continue on conversation, you may very well catch me in misquoting the Bible. I'm like every other guy, I can get lazy and coast on what I heard instead of what I've researched out myself. Honestly, your posts made me worried for moment. My quote was off the cuff based on general understanding, so I worried I put my foot in my mouth. However, this is not one of those cases.

Someone in the thread cautioned me about cherry picking information. You must do the same.

You quoted the use of evil of Isaiah 45:7 in the King James version. The Hebrew word for evil there is "rah," which can refer to plain evil, but also just bad stuff in general.

In context, God is showing contrasts. Light and dark. Peace and "not-peace" or peaceful times and not peaceful times. Peace and moral evil are not contrasts. So translate the word evil there to bad stuff happening.

God has brought down lots of bad things, such as wars, pestilence, drought and other calamities. But not moral evil. We do that. We might think these things happening is evil of God, but it's not. It's all deserved.
God bringing down those things is morally evil yes, it would be morally evil no matter who is doing it.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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15-10-2014, 09:49 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 04:31 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Mathilda,

Read in context. The topic is morals. The question is why we SHOULD love our children.

Because that's how social animals raise their children correctly.
An unloved child tends to have serious issues as an adult.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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15-10-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(15-10-2014 09:43 AM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  Your entire notion of atheism is flawed.
Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a deity. Period.
You took it far from what it actually means.

Winterwolf00,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure my understanding of atheism is rudimentary and mostly gleaned from popular culture. I'll try to research the philosophy better so as to articulate my thoughts without offending the forum.
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15-10-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(12-10-2014 01:32 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  So in my class history of christianity, again, I have managed to make someone think and reach out, and it means everything to me, it is why I try... Here are the posts from our final week. I will call him "T", and my replies in bold.

Module 8 Free discussion--discuss anything related to the course.

My post for the week:
---------------------------------
Mythology has always fascinated me. When you research mythology, you find the common strains, a rhythm, a philosophical skeletal system where the “hero god” is constructed, and the same system is used time and time again. It is almost as if one borrowed from another throughout time. It is impossible to ignore the implication of systematic fabrication. The jesus story, however, was not original. The entire story seems to have been plagiarized in bits and pieces, and sometimes blatantly intact, from ancient god/man mythology passed down by Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures.

The list is long, from Horus in 3000 BCE Egypt all the way to jesus, but I will focus on just one…Romulus 771 BCE. In Plutarch’s biography of Romulus, the founder of Rome, we are told he was the son of god, born of a virgin; an attempt is made to kill him as a baby, and he is saved, and raised by a poor family, hailed as King, and killed by the conniving elite; that he rises from the dead, appears to a friend to tell the good news to his people, and ascends to heaven to rule from on high. Sound familiar? Just like Jesus.

Plutarch also tells us about annual public ceremonies that were still being formed, which celebrated the day Romulus ascended to heaven. The story goes as follows: at the end of his life, amid rumors he was murdered by conspiracy of the Senate, the sun went dark, and Romulus’s body vanished. The people wanted to search for him but the Senate told them not to, “for he had risen to join the gods”. Most went away happy, hoping for good things from their new god, but “some doubted”. Soon after, Proculus, a close friend of Romulus, reported that he met Romulus “on the road” between Rome and a nearby town and asked him, “why have you abandoned us?”, To which Romulus replied that he had been a God all along but had come down to earth and become incarnate to establish a great kingdom, and now had to return to his home in heaven. Then Romulus told his friend to tell the Romans that if they are virtuous they will have all worldly power (Carrier 56).

Folks, does any of this ring any bells for you? You do realize this story predates Jesus by 800 years right? Fabricators of religion borrow from previous religions Man/God/hero constructs and have all the way back to 3000 B.C.E.

So the fact that the jesus son of god myth story has clearly been plagiarized from older Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Persian cultures, coupled with the fact that no one who wrote of Jesus actually knew him should make a thinking person take a pause, and reflect on the basis of their faith.

Works cited:

Carrier, Richard. On the historicity of Jesus: why we might have reason for doubt. Sheffield, England: Sheffield Phoenix press, 2014. Print.

R/
###########


*his response*

T: That's a powerful statement that you made at the end of your discussion. You have truly made my mind wonder about a lot. Knowledge is power and a lot of people are powerless. I will be looking into this because now I am curious as to know the TRUTH. Christianity only dates back so far and at the beginning Christianity was looked upon as false teaching so what was the religion prior to that. We discussed something similar earlier in this course and topics like these are the best because they will get any mind to start thinking outside of the box.

*my reply*

T,

I cannot tell you how much your reply means to me. This is why I strive to share with others what I have learned in over 30 years of studying religion, specifically christianity. Blind faith does no one any justice. The very reason I went on the road to studying was in an attempt to bolster my faith. I wanted to know the information to be able to shut down the critics. Lo and behold the opposite happened, the more I learned, the less I believed. You can't ignore the obvious. It has been a story told and retold for generations and people take it at face value without even bothering to study its formation. It is like a security blanket with holes all in it, and tattered strings along the edges, from afar it looks solid, well crafted, warm and comforting, up close, you can grab a string, give it a gentle tug, and the whole thing begins to unravel. Pull the string T#####, don't take my opinions or posits, or anyone else's as fact, do your research, discover the truth, evolve beyond the myth. I wish you the best on your journey.

R/
#######


----------------------------------------------------

This is what puts the wind behind my sails, if I can connect with just one person, make them think, plant a few seeds of doubt so that they want to verify, think and study...then they are off and running down the path to enlightenment.

makes it all worthwhile. Yes

Outstanding!

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-10-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(15-10-2014 12:11 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 09:43 AM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  Your entire notion of atheism is flawed.
Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a deity. Period.
You took it far from what it actually means.

Winterwolf00,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure my understanding of atheism is rudimentary and mostly gleaned from popular culture. I'll try to research the philosophy better so as to articulate my thoughts without offending the forum.
If it was just a misunderstanding then your welcome.
See though atheism isn't even a philosophy, it's a single stance on a single issue.

Secular Humanism is a philosophy which I do embrace, but atheism is not.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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15-10-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: Why I bother....
Forum members,

Thank you all for your spirited and patient replies, and for those not patient as well. Smile

I'm not gaining the understanding I was seeking. This may be for a number of reasons:

- I'm looking for answers that don't exist.
- I don't recognize or accept the answers because of preconceived notions on my part.
- I'm not asking the correct questions and I didn't start asking my questions in a logical and proper manner.

Frankly the conversation has morphed into too many topics to keep up with, a natural direction seeing I'm saying things that many of you disagree with.

You've given me a lot to think about. I need to digest it for a bit.

Cheers,
Tsukho
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15-10-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(15-10-2014 12:53 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Forum members,

Thank you all for your spirited and patient replies, and for those not patient as well. Smile

I'm not gaining the understanding I was seeking. This may be for a number of reasons:

- I'm looking for answers that don't exist.
- I don't recognize or accept the answers because of preconceived notions on my part.
- I'm not asking the correct questions and I didn't start asking my questions in a logical and proper manner.

Frankly the conversation has morphed into too many topics to keep up with, a natural direction seeing I'm saying things that many of you disagree with.

You've given me a lot to think about. I need to digest it for a bit.

Cheers,
Tsukho

Keep asking questions, keep pondering, keep digesting. Food for the intellect.Thumbsup

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-10-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(15-10-2014 12:53 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  You've given me a lot to think about. I need to digest it for a bit.

Always a good idea. I hope you do return.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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