Why I bother....
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14-10-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Why I bother....
First, I'd like to thank you, Tsukho, for proving me wrong by actually sticking around and conversing with us. Now, on to your responses to my post.

(14-10-2014 06:52 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  [WillHop, you said: Are you saying your god isn't smart enough to see Satan's tactics in advance and is incapable of defending against them?] The Bible teaches God is omniscient. He was well aware of Satan and all of history. God doesn't think like us. If we were omniscient, we would simply avoid all the bad things and live in Nirvana. God has different purposes. Allowing Satan to do what he does is part of that.

[You said: Are you saying your god can't defeat Satan?] God allows Satan to do what he does. Popular culture envisions a war between God and Satan, but that's not what the Bible teaches. God is omnipotent. There is no war. God allows Satan to continue for a span of time. True, Satan wars against us, but the idea of him warring against God is like flea warring against a mountain. There is no fight.

[That he can't take the ONE story that is supposed to be the greatest one ever told and change it enough to not replicate the dozens of other hero/savior tales?] Perhaps you missed the point of my post. God and his work predates all of human history. His story is not the copy, it's the original. Satan and mankind's versions are the replications.

Why can't you see all of the special pleading you need to fabricate to enable your god to exist without contempt? God allows Satan to do what he does? You compare your god to us, but what you fail to do is put us both in a real-life situation and compare our actions. If I were creating and raising my child, I would not also create an evil presence that can/would make my child's life miserable. Your god is the greatest example of an absentee father, but not only that, he's evil incarnate, because he created evil and let it flourish when he didn't have to do it.

How do you not comprehend that creating satan and allowing him to exist is evil? How can you worship something that intentionally allows suffering and does nothing about it? How are we to "war" against satan when he is supernatural and we are mere mortals? Let me guess, our weapon is our faith in this god of yours, right? But wait, he doesn't get involved in this war, after all, he is the mountain and satan is the flea. Your worldview is so distorted and sick it's no wonder you're blind. Let's put our children in my hostile environment where their opponents can do anything and we'll arm them with a book of myths and lies. That's love for ya.

I didn't miss your point on god's story, you missed mine. Christians only learned of "jesus" 2K years ago, so why would god allow satan to "plant" nearly identical stories and savior characters that predate jesus? Let me guess, to test our faith? Are you the same person who thinks god put dinosaur bones deep into the earth to test our faith, too?

You need to justify your god when he shouldn't need justification. You have to twist reality so perversely to make your god palatable, it's like getting served a spoiled grizzled steak and having to put a bottle of ketchup on it to avoid the bad taste in your mouth. No thanks. When I get served garbage, I send it back.

But again, thanks for not putting on the hit-and-run, I appreciate that you stuck around to respond. Your response was sad, but nonetheless it was a response.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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14-10-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Colourcraze,

I'm familiar with that reasoning. You say it's derived though evolution, I says it because God's law is written on every heart, as stated in the Bible.

My point is that from an evolutionary standing, altruism, compassion and empathy are simply constructs of society which have no objective source of being good or bad. They are simply expedient to growing a society. So you can tell a murder that his action is bad or evil in that it is not expedient to growing a society, but you then must equally condemn the lion that eats it's cub. Being smarter doesn't make an action any more good or bad.

The answer through evolution is the survival of the fittest. There are no right or wrong actions, only actions that are expedient to a desired outcome, such as growing a society, as in your example.

But the universe doesn't care one bit if our society grows. A growing society is only good from my point of view in that it gratifies my needs. If the laws of physics slams an asteroid into our planet, killing all humans, then that is neither intrinsically good or bad or evil or compassion-less. It's just a fact. If a person agrees with the universe and releases a super bug to kill all humans, then he's also neither good or bad. Perhaps he just wants all the resources for himself. From that point of view, his actions are good.
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14-10-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Zippo,

Actually I have considered that. It spawned my visits to atheist boards in the first place.

I know morality exists, that it is an object rule based off the existence of God. I know love exists. If all of humanity suddenly died, love still remains as a good thing, in and of itself. I know that atheist do good an moral things.

Evolution tells me that love is simply a social fabrication to help us get along, which boils down to a method of gratifying my own desires. The Bible tells me that love is all about the other person. Evolution tells me love is all about myself.

If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

By the way, isn't everyong here, including you, everyone making the same assertions, that your line of belief is true? Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.
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14-10-2014, 09:16 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 09:19 AM by Chas.)
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 06:52 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Good gravy,

I chummed the waters and the sharks have arrived. It amazes me that the atheistic claim to superior logic and morality always breaks down to sarcasm and name calling. However, I'm sure if one of you posted on a Christian forum, you might get the same. *Sigh, our human condition....*

Chumming the waters is not an honest discussion tactic. Try just being straightforward.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-10-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.

Actually, unfogged did say:

Quote:I don't claim that no god exists. I say that the evidence presented so far that he does is specious at best. There is simply not enough that can't be explained without needing a god to accept that there is one.

...and I will agree with that. I assert that God might be real -- but so far there is insufficient evidence to convince me that he actually is real.
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14-10-2014, 10:13 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Unfogged,

You misunderstand. God's plan is not watered down, just the telling of it in the world. Thus my earlier analogy of wartime misinformation.

As for accepting nonsensical non-answers: Empirical, albeit experiential evidence, points me to the fact that God exists. I sought God, he answered, I began a relationship with him, I find his word to be truthful.

As to evolutionary theory, I stand corrected. Thank you. I should perhaps have said evolution is a theory that is often espoused as a fact and the only origin explanation. Obviously, I'm a Christian, so you could call me "religious," but I understand that science does not just one day think something up out of the blue and run with it. Science observes, experiments and adheres to the most logical explanation. Perhaps you might concede that a Christian might do the same: observe something, research it, and come to the most logical explanation. I believe science supports the existence of God, it doesn't disprove it.

As for demonstrable evidence with my 3-year old, the analogy remains. If you would like to understand God's motives, read the Bible. It's not like it's a secret. But Christianity is not just facts and ink on paper, it's experiential. It's a relationship. I found it to be true because I interact with God. You would counter that I'm listening to myself and reading into coincidences, but I would ask how many coincidences do you stack up before you adjust your thinking to God existing? I reached that limit, which is why I believe in God.

My comment about a lion's lack of compassion was to segue to Timber1025,s text that appeared to assert compassion and empathy as moral absolutes, a point you skipped over. But to your point, I might say you do not understand Biblical Christianity. I don't speak about other gods and goddesses. I think they are fakes, exactly the same and to the same purposes as the myths that GWOG mentioned in the original post. The Bible doesn't teach that God was surprised by or disappointed with a creation that didn't live up to his expectations. He's omniscient, wouldn't he know that up front? Also God isn't forced into letting anything happen. The Bible teaches that he's omnipotent and sovereign, everything happens as he intends and allows. And yet, not being responsible for it, he still comes in to clean up the mess.
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14-10-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 10:13 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Unfogged,

You misunderstand. God's plan is not watered down, just the telling of it in the world. Thus my earlier analogy of wartime misinformation.

As for accepting nonsensical non-answers: Empirical, albeit experiential evidence, points me to the fact that God exists. I sought God, he answered, I began a relationship with him, I find his word to be truthful.

That is not empirical evidence, only personal experience.

Quote:As to evolutionary theory, I stand corrected. Thank you. I should perhaps have said evolution is a theory that is often espoused as a fact and the only origin explanation. Obviously, I'm a Christian, so you could call me "religious," but I understand that science does not just one day think something up out of the blue and run with it. Science observes, experiments and adheres to the most logical explanation. Perhaps you might concede that a Christian might do the same: observe something, research it, and come to the most logical explanation. I believe science supports the existence of God, it doesn't disprove it.

Please provide some evidence of that.

Quote:As for demonstrable evidence with my 3-year old, the analogy remains. If you would like to understand God's motives, read the Bible. It's not like it's a secret. But Christianity is not just facts and ink on paper, it's experiential. It's a relationship. I found it to be true because I interact with God. You would counter that I'm listening to myself and reading into coincidences, but I would ask how many coincidences do you stack up before you adjust your thinking to God existing? I reached that limit, which is why I believe in God.

Confirmation bias. Look it up.

Quote:My comment about a lion's lack of compassion was to segue to Timber1025,s text that appeared to assert compassion and empathy as moral absolutes, a point you skipped over. But to your point, I might say you do not understand Biblical Christianity. I don't speak about other gods and goddesses. I think they are fakes, exactly the same and to the same purposes as the myths that GWOG mentioned in the original post. The Bible doesn't teach that God was surprised by or disappointed with a creation that didn't live up to his expectations. He's omniscient, wouldn't he know that up front? Also God isn't forced into letting anything happen. The Bible teaches that he's omnipotent and sovereign, everything happens as he intends and allows. And yet, not being responsible for it, he still comes in to clean up the mess.

The Bible doesn't read like that at all. God directs people to make a mess.

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14-10-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  I know morality exists, that it is an object rule based off the existence of God. I know love exists. If all of humanity suddenly died, love still remains as a good thing, in and of itself. I know that atheist do good an moral things.

Evolution tells me that love is simply a social fabrication to help us get along, which boils down to a method of gratifying my own desires. The Bible tells me that love is all about the other person. Evolution tells me love is all about myself.

If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

By the way, isn't everyong here, including you, everyone making the same assertions, that your line of belief is true? Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.
Morality is nothing more than a system of ideas about right and wrong. No god needed or required.

The rest of the post is so fallacy laden I do not even care to waste my time responding to it.
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14-10-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Chas already summed up most of what I was thinking about your claims. You seem to count the hits and ignore the misses for every conclusion you have about god. I also do not follow your claims about god being omniscient and having a plan but then also allowing us to distort it. The claims appear to be contradictory. At the very least they define a being that is uncaring or incompetent.

A couple of other points:

Quote:I should perhaps have said evolution is a theory that is often espoused as a fact and the only origin explanation.

It is the best theory we have currently. The core idea has withstood over a hundred years of investigation and testing and it is been extended and strengthened by what else we have learned in that time. It is as close to "fact" as anything. No other theory has anywhere near the amount of supporting evidence. For the record, creationism and "intelligent design" are NOT theories in the scientific sense of the word. They are, at best, hypotheses with no extra-biblical supporting evidence and mountains of actual disconfirming evidence.

Quote:I don't speak about other gods and goddesses. I think they are fakes, exactly the same and to the same purposes as the myths that GWOG mentioned in the original post.

The believers in those gods and godesses had scriptures to read, personal experiences to go by, and used pretty much the same arguments that you use for your god. There is no way to tell them apart. Anything you say about how you know your beliefs to be true can be claimed by Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Jainists, Muslims, Jews, Native Americans, and the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Mesopotamians, and pretty much every culture that ever existed. I just see no reason not to include Christianity in with the rest.

A theist might argue that it points to there being an underlying truth but given the vast array of beliefs and there mutual incompatibility it would mean that if there really is a god then it either (a) doesn't care about our knowing the truth or (b) is really, really bad at providing reliable evidence. From my perspective it all points to a desire for assurance in an unpredictable world and an over-developed agency detection system which is easily explained by evolutionary theory. It is something to be guarded against, not embraced.

You seem to be pretty intelligent but I think that if you could examine your beliefs without the presupposition that god exists you would see how many unjustified rationalizations you are employing.

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14-10-2014, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 04:18 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 03:24 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  From one perspective, the previous myth argument seems to point to Jesus not being who he said he was. However, here are some other thoughts on the topic. Granted from an atheistic point of view, you have to suspend disbelief and accept some Biblical concepts. You're point is that the Jesus story is plagiarism, when in actuality, it's exactly the opposite.

Is Christianity based on previous myths?
If God exists and the Bible is true, then Christ as a person predates human creation. Christianity did not begin with Christ's birth on earth as Jesus. The person of Christ and God's intention to save his children predates humanity and all "myths." This is not a story of a hero fighting evil. There is no fighting with God. This is a story about reconciliation and a father who sacrificed to bring his children out of destruction. It began in our timeline as soon as the original sin occurred and has been playing throughout history. Everything else is the spin-off.

Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war. What else would he do?
Also, humans have known about God for six thousand years. As you point out, many stories are told, retold, changed and told again. This does not preclude an original story from being true.

Thanks,
Tsukho

Actually it's not "from an atheistic perspective", it from a purely historical perspective. There is not a shred of evidence that a "Jesus of Nazareth" existed, or that the claims made about him make any sense, and that has nothing to do with evil angels, the HUMAN origins of which are dealt with in the book by Princeton scholar Dr. Elaine Pagels, in her well known "The Origins of Satan". there are no evil angels, there are no angels, (the servants of the Babylonian "El" god... which is why most of them have names ending in "el" ... Micha-el, Rapha-el etc).

In fact if you read the proceedings of the Councils (available at Fordham University's web site), you can WATCH, as HUMANS cooked up the present conception of the "Christ as a god". The "divinity" of Jesus is DIFFERENT in each gospel, (as any scholar knows). They argued and VOTED (non-unanimously) on what these things were and meant.

Positing devils "before" this universe was created, is meaningless. There was no space-time "before" this universe. The Bible says nothing about fallen angels. Christians made up all that shit. The supposed references to "satan" in the bible are easily refuted.

Carrier has excellent videos on how the gospels were created according to the "pattern" of ancient myths. No one has ever once that I've seen even attempted to refute them.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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