Why I bother....
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14-10-2014, 10:53 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 12:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  I know morality exists, that it is an object rule based off the existence of God. I know love exists. If all of humanity suddenly died, love still remains as a good thing, in and of itself. I know that atheist do good an moral things.

Evolution tells me that love is simply a social fabrication to help us get along, which boils down to a method of gratifying my own desires. The Bible tells me that love is all about the other person. Evolution tells me love is all about myself.

If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

By the way, isn't everyong here, including you, everyone making the same assertions, that your line of belief is true? Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.

The origins of morality, are entirely HUMAN, as anyone who has taken even one Anthropology course knows. The God of the OT said it's OK to STONE disobedient children. Is THAT the "love" you speak of ? Love in an emergent property of human brains, and you have not a shred of evidence for anything else. A human emotion. If you have evidence, provide it, now.

The plural of atheist, is atheistS.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-10-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Chas,

Let me apologize. Perhaps that too was sarcastic. But you have to admit it was funny, and I think straight forward, too. (Knucklebump? Don't leave me hanging...)

This is not my first rodeo. In my quest to understand atheism, I have posted on other forums, not to start arguments, but to get different perspectives and thoughts on atheism that I don't find in books or on Youtube.

Some might claim I have an agenda, not really looking for truth, but rather seeking to persuade others to my point of view. To a degree , that's probably true. However, I've been around the block enough to know that everyone is like that. Everyone is the same. We all think we're right about everything, until a really good fact comes along that we can't get around. Then we add that fact to our paradigm and immediately begin thinking we know it all again.

I thought GWOG's comment was interesting. It comes from a perspective that obviously God must not exists, so this is the explanation for Christianity: It's a rip-off myth. I wondered if he had thought about another perspective.

I absolutely agree with the fact the forum should be honest and cordial. Are you a moderator? Keep in mind, When I said that comment, I had already been called a troll and a hit and run theist, so perhaps I was a little justified.

However, since then, I've also been called ridiculous and a newbie. It's been sarcastically alluded to that believing in Christianity is analogous to believing in faeries, big foot, and Santa Clause. Where's the forum moderator there?

Please understand, I don't think this is verbal abuse. I've introduced commentary in direct opposition to the main point of view on the thread. It's expected. I think sometimes we get too easily offended. And I also think the lone visitor to the hostile environment deserves a little latitude. Don't you agree?

I appreciate you letting me take part of the forum and I appreciate the vim and vigor of the conversation.
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14-10-2014, 11:06 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 11:10 AM by Bows and Arrows.)
RE: Why I bother....
This forum is extremely open to free speech. The conversations won't be moderated strictly, if at all.

Everyone's words are open to debate and ridicule.

Check the forum rules, the biggest "rule breakers" that I see are sock puppets, discussion of pedofilia, and no porn.

Pretty much everything else is fair game. There is a couple special areas where you can go one-on-one with someone and set your own ground rules.


but name calling, cursing and debate are all fair game.


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...d-Behavior


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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14-10-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 11:00 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Chas,

Let me apologize. Perhaps that too was sarcastic. But you have to admit it was funny, and I think straight forward, too. (Knucklebump? Don't leave me hanging...)

The chumming comment? Provocative, not funny.

Quote:This is not my first rodeo. In my quest to understand atheism, I have posted on other forums, not to start arguments, but to get different perspectives and thoughts on atheism that I don't find in books or on Youtube.

Quest to understand atheism? Let's help you end it right here, because the answer is really simple.

Atheism is the lack of belief in any gods. The reason is that there is no evidence of any gods.

That's it, quest over.

Quote:Some might claim I have an agenda, not really looking for truth, but rather seeking to persuade others to my point of view. To a degree , that's probably true. However, I've been around the block enough to know that everyone is like that. Everyone is the same. We all think we're right about everything, until a really good fact comes along that we can't get around. Then we add that fact to our paradigm and immediately begin thinking we know it all again.

If you want to be convincing, make a rational argument supported by evidence.
If you don't have any evidence, then have the honesty to admit that your belief is based on faith and on emotion.

Quote:I thought GWOG's comment was interesting. It comes from a perspective that obviously God must not exists, so this is the explanation for Christianity: It's a rip-off myth. I wondered if he had thought about another perspective.

I absolutely agree with the fact the forum should be honest and cordial. Are you a moderator?
No.
Quote:Keep in mind, When I said that comment, I had already been called a troll and a hit and run theist, so perhaps I was a little justified.

However, since then, I've also been called ridiculous and a newbie. It's been sarcastically alluded to that believing in Christianity is analogous to believing in faeries, big foot, and Santa Clause. Where's the forum moderator there?

There are strong similarities.

Quote:Please understand, I don't think this is verbal abuse. I've introduced commentary in direct opposition to the main point of view on the thread. It's expected. I think sometimes we get too easily offended. And I also think the lone visitor to the hostile environment deserves a little latitude. Don't you agree?

I appreciate you letting me take part of the forum and I appreciate the vim and vigor of the conversation.

You're welcome to participate, just be prepared for derision of bad ideas and poor arguments.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-10-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: Why I bother....
My comment about you being a troll was merely to see if you would return, because our experience is usually some theist will hit a random topic, make a statement and then we spend pages upon pages refuting that one fly-by-night comment only to realize on Page 28 that the theist never came back and never once responded to our replies. I also was immediate in my second post thanking you for not actually being one of these trolls and for sticking around and NOT being a hit-and-run theist.

But as has been mentioned, there is no rule stating insults are forbidden, even though they aren't part of my usual practice here.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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14-10-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Zippo,

Actually I have considered that. It spawned my visits to atheist boards in the first place.

I know morality exists, that it is an object rule based off the existence of God. I know love exists. If all of humanity suddenly died, love still remains as a good thing, in and of itself. I know that atheist do good an moral things.

Evolution tells me that love is simply a social fabrication to help us get along, which boils down to a method of gratifying my own desires. The Bible tells me that love is all about the other person. Evolution tells me love is all about myself.

If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

By the way, isn't everyong here, including you, everyone making the same assertions, that your line of belief is true? Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.

What is this love is everywhere hippie crap? the universe wants to kill all life in it - it is in places violent, void of life, and absoluetly brutal. No love around if humans were not in the picture.

Educate yourself on evolution and natural selection, as you know squat. The caring for others in your family or social group, and beyond, does not rely on a god myth. BTW, Prison populations are just filled to the rim with god fearing christians.

If you cannot love your children with evolution being more true than a god, then you are warped and an ignorant twit.

And yes - when you come to an athiest blog with a presumed conclusion and try to bend and fabricate any evidence to support this idea, you will not gain much agreement. Some are agnostic here, but without any real evidence we will not entertain that a god just might be real. Your desire and need for a god to exist has you not thinking clearly, logically, or rationally.

Sorry but I just cannot pussyfoot around folks like you anymore with your stupid claims, and intolerable lack of basic knowledge in the sciences and how it relates to observed reality. Go somewhere and talk to close minded morons who may buy into your fantasy world.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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14-10-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Why I bother....
WillHopp,

I did a quick search of the thread. You're the only one who has said thank you in addition to me. Thank you for your thank you!

A common secular thought is that we're all good people, just trying to get along, and bad things happen. A loving God wouldn't allow that, so there must be no God.

The Bible teaches God exists and reality is governed by the spirit, not the natural. God is spirit. We're part spirit. Everything spirtual impacts life and this world. (I'm not talking about ghosts and mood crystals. Read the Bible. It's plain on explaining the spiritual element of creation.) The Bible teaches that no one is good. Bad things happen because of us. All sin, no matter how small, has consequences. And when we do wrong, we know it, because God's law is written on everyone's heart, not from some genetically handed down sense of morality.
God wants a creation that responds to him in a relationship, so he allows free will, knowing that created beings less than him will choose wrong. Look at the other possibilities, he could have created nothing or robots. Would you want that? You accuse God of being evil for dropping off children in a hostile environment, but if you have children, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You might say you'd watch over them. I'd say God does the same. You might say he's done nothing for you. I'd say what do you expect if you you've been ignoring him and trashing his name? He takes care of me.

God did not create anything evil. Everything he created was good. Some of it (us and angels) were given free will. We could choose evil and have done so. You have done so. I have too. This results in the horrible stuff in the world. However God allows for a way of return, for the broken laws to satisfied but also allowing us escape the damage we've done.
Our war is less with Satan than it is with outselves. Paul the Apostle says we war within ourselves. We're a spirit from God in a earthsuit of flesh. The flesh wants what it wants. For the most part that's nachos, beer, long hours of sleep and xBox. However when given full reign, flesh expands it's desires and that can lead to terrible situations.

The early parts of the old testament go back eons in time. God's children started learning about him back then. There are messianic verses written well before Christ was born as Jesus. Satan was well aware of these. Satan rebelled against God and was cast out. He know his ultimate destination and knows there is nothing he can do about it. The Bible says his main focus now is to do as much damage as possible to God's children as posible. Part fo that is throwing out as many counterfits as possible.

I don't have to justify God. He's capable of taking care of himself. God's ultimate goal is show his power, love and mercy to all of creation, but especially to his children.

WillHopp, true Christianity (that which is supported by the Bible) is like dominoes. A person has an experience they can't explain except that they came in contact with God. From then on, it's like dominoes, one falling after the other. As you get down the road, you find the pie-in-the sky God is actually real and desires a relationship. Relationships require back and forth communication. If God is totally absent, I might as well have a relationship with a pet rock. But he's not absent. You could try some empirical research and seek him out.
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14-10-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Why I bother....
Grasshopper,

I stand corrected again. Apologies, it's not my intent to misrepresent facts. I simply lose track of all the conversations.

Thanks,
Tsukho.
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14-10-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 11:46 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  WillHopp,

I did a quick search of the thread. You're the only one who has said thank you in addition to me. Thank you for your thank you!

A common secular thought is that we're all good people, just trying to get along, and bad things happen. A loving God wouldn't allow that, so there must be no God.

The Bible teaches God exists and reality is governed by the spirit, not the natural. God is spirit. We're part spirit. Everything spirtual impacts life and this world. (I'm not talking about ghosts and mood crystals. Read the Bible. It's plain on explaining the spiritual element of creation.) The Bible teaches that no one is good. Bad things happen because of us. All sin, no matter how small, has consequences. And when we do wrong, we know it, because God's law is written on everyone's heart, not from some genetically handed down sense of morality.
God wants a creation that responds to him in a relationship, so he allows free will, knowing that created beings less than him will choose wrong. Look at the other possibilities, he could have created nothing or robots. Would you want that? You accuse God of being evil for dropping off children in a hostile environment, but if you have children, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You might say you'd watch over them. I'd say God does the same. You might say he's done nothing for you. I'd say what do you expect if you you've been ignoring him and trashing his name? He takes care of me.

God did not create anything evil. Everything he created was good. Some of it (us and angels) were given free will. We could choose evil and have done so. You have done so. I have too. This results in the horrible stuff in the world. However God allows for a way of return, for the broken laws to satisfied but also allowing us escape the damage we've done.
Our war is less with Satan than it is with outselves. Paul the Apostle says we war within ourselves. We're a spirit from God in a earthsuit of flesh. The flesh wants what it wants. For the most part that's nachos, beer, long hours of sleep and xBox. However when given full reign, flesh expands it's desires and that can lead to terrible situations.

The early parts of the old testament go back eons in time. God's children started learning about him back then. There are messianic verses written well before Christ was born as Jesus. Satan was well aware of these. Satan rebelled against God and was cast out. He know his ultimate destination and knows there is nothing he can do about it. The Bible says his main focus now is to do as much damage as possible to God's children as posible. Part fo that is throwing out as many counterfits as possible.

I don't have to justify God. He's capable of taking care of himself. God's ultimate goal is show his power, love and mercy to all of creation, but especially to his children.

WillHopp, true Christianity (that which is supported by the Bible) is like dominoes. A person has an experience they can't explain except that they came in contact with God. From then on, it's like dominoes, one falling after the other. As you get down the road, you find the pie-in-the sky God is actually real and desires a relationship. Relationships require back and forth communication. If God is totally absent, I might as well have a relationship with a pet rock. But he's not absent. You could try some empirical research and seek him out.

"The bible teaches" is a horrible reason to assert something as good or true. We should then be taking virgins as spoils of war, stoning people for minor offenses, owning slaves, and offering up our daughters as currency. The bible teaches that if you are not one of the group, you need to be eliminated. You get dumber with every response.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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14-10-2014, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 12:10 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 11:46 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  The Bible teaches God exists and reality is governed by the spirit, not the natural. God is spirit. We're part spirit.

Actually the Bible teaches no such thing.
An argument doing that would be circular anyway. You have to believe in the Bible to accept what humans wrote, that was eventually assembled into the Bible (and we know and approximately when they did that). The Hebrew scriptures ASSUME that Yahweh, ( http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-is-Yahweh ) who was the 70th son of El Elyon, the chief Babylonian deity, is one of the gods. The Hebrews believed in many gods. They agreed to worship one. No scholar disputes that. Yahweh was the Babylonian War deity. The Hebrews chose him as they wanted assistance in their battles. The Bible never says that Reality "is governed by spirit" You made that up. There is not a shred of evidence we are "part spirit". You have none. You made that shit up also.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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