Why I bother....
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-10-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Evolution tells me that love is simply a social fabrication to help us get along, which boils down to a method of gratifying my own desires. The Bible tells me that love is all about the other person. Evolution tells me love is all about myself.

Love is not a social fabrication, it is an evolutionary trait. Social fabrications would be things such as writing and setting down codes of conduct, think Hammurabi or the USA's Bill of Rights.

The Bible has a very poor record of consistently showing love.(Here is where we "cherry pick" passages ad nauseam to support each side.)

Evolution doesn't tell us that "love is all about myself", we view evolutionary traits such as empathy and strong emotional attachments we call love in the context of a social species and then reach conclusions on why it is beneficial to the species.

(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

Have you considered that the human species has been having children and rearing them, loving them and taking care of them long, long, long before 2000 BCE? Long before evolution was understood or your bible god was concieved?

While certain individuals of our species can and have demonstrated purely selfish actions the great majority of human beings continue exercising altruism no matter where they are from, what religion if any they practice, the color of their skin, the language the speak or any other difference you can think of. It has been selected over countless generations as a beneficial trait to have for the survival of our species. You can not love your children any more than you can not want to be part of a close family or social group. We're "wired" that way, a supernatural being need not apply.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
14-10-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 11:46 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  WillHopp,

I did a quick search of the thread. You're the only one who has said thank you in addition to me. Thank you for your thank you!

A common secular thought is that we're all good people, just trying to get along, and bad things happen. A loving God wouldn't allow that, so there must be no God.

The Bible teaches God exists and reality is governed by the spirit, not the natural. God is spirit. We're part spirit. Everything spirtual impacts life and this world. (I'm not talking about ghosts and mood crystals. Read the Bible. It's plain on explaining the spiritual element of creation.) The Bible teaches that no one is good. Bad things happen because of us. All sin, no matter how small, has consequences. And when we do wrong, we know it, because God's law is written on everyone's heart, not from some genetically handed down sense of morality.
God wants a creation that responds to him in a relationship, so he allows free will, knowing that created beings less than him will choose wrong. Look at the other possibilities, he could have created nothing or robots. Would you want that? You accuse God of being evil for dropping off children in a hostile environment, but if you have children, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You might say you'd watch over them. I'd say God does the same. You might say he's done nothing for you. I'd say what do you expect if you you've been ignoring him and trashing his name? He takes care of me.

God did not create anything evil. Everything he created was good. Some of it (us and angels) were given free will. We could choose evil and have done so. You have done so. I have too. This results in the horrible stuff in the world. However God allows for a way of return, for the broken laws to satisfied but also allowing us escape the damage we've done.
Our war is less with Satan than it is with outselves. Paul the Apostle says we war within ourselves. We're a spirit from God in a earthsuit of flesh. The flesh wants what it wants. For the most part that's nachos, beer, long hours of sleep and xBox. However when given full reign, flesh expands it's desires and that can lead to terrible situations.

The early parts of the old testament go back eons in time. God's children started learning about him back then. There are messianic verses written well before Christ was born as Jesus. Satan was well aware of these. Satan rebelled against God and was cast out. He know his ultimate destination and knows there is nothing he can do about it. The Bible says his main focus now is to do as much damage as possible to God's children as posible. Part fo that is throwing out as many counterfits as possible.

I don't have to justify God. He's capable of taking care of himself. God's ultimate goal is show his power, love and mercy to all of creation, but especially to his children.

WillHopp, true Christianity (that which is supported by the Bible) is like dominoes. A person has an experience they can't explain except that they came in contact with God. From then on, it's like dominoes, one falling after the other. As you get down the road, you find the pie-in-the sky God is actually real and desires a relationship. Relationships require back and forth communication. If God is totally absent, I might as well have a relationship with a pet rock. But he's not absent. You could try some empirical research and seek him out.

The bible does not explicitly teach any of that. It has been interpreted to do so, or not depending on the particular denomination.

So god did not create evil. He had it in his power to keep it from happening, but allowed it any way. If there were a god it would still be responsible. You can not give the ultimate supreme being credit for the good stuff while passing off the bad things to something else. When you are in charge of everything you get credit or blame as appropriate.

There is not one true christianity. If there was there would not be the many denominations that all claim to be the one true version.

You are doing lots of explaining. Have you ever though that it is way more complicated than it needs to be? If god was real believing would be a lot more straightforward and not require so many explanations that are often absurd?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like wazzel's post
14-10-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 12:03 PM)wazzel Wrote:  So god did not create evil.

Actually he did, according to Isaiah 45:6-7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
14-10-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 12:30 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 12:03 PM)wazzel Wrote:  So god did not create evil.

Actually he did, according to Isaiah 45:6-7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Well then, I guess god would be responsible if god existed. It has been a long time since I read Isaiah.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 01:14 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

Evolution is true, and not one major academic institution in the entire world teaches it is not true. Almost all of modern Biology, Medicine, and Genetics uses it as a foundational working hypothesis, which has not one shred of evidence to refute it. If you don't like the consequences of that, .... too bad. There is no Santa Claus. I know it's hard. Your selfishness is astounding, thinking in terms of your individual self, being what is ultimately important and not the human race.

You seem like a real "newbie" / beginner to adult human thought.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
14-10-2014, 12:40 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(13-10-2014 03:24 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Why I bother,

From one perspective, the previous myth argument seems to point to Jesus not being who he said he was. However, here are some other thoughts on the topic. Granted from an atheistic point of view, you have to suspend disbelief and accept some Biblical concepts. You're point is that the Jesus story is plagiarism, when in actuality, it's exactly the opposite.

Is Christianity based on previous myths?
If God exists and the Bible is true, then Christ as a person predates human creation. Christianity did not begin with Christ's birth on earth as Jesus. The person of Christ and God's intention to save his children predates humanity and all "myths." This is not a story of a hero fighting evil. There is no fighting with God. This is a story about reconciliation and a father who sacrificed to bring his children out of destruction. It began in our timeline as soon as the original sin occurred and has been playing throughout history. Everything else is the spin-off.

Why all the similar myths? (Two reasons.)
If Satan exists as the Bible claims, then he is at war with God's children and he is a terrible adversary. Human intelligence pales in comparison. He knew God before our existence and is well aware of God's character. Wouldn't you think he had a good idea of God's plans and would put in place as much misinformation and propaganda as possible? He's at war. What else would he do?
Also, humans have known about God for six thousand years. As you point out, many stories are told, retold, changed and told again. This does not preclude an original story from being true.

Thanks,
Tsukho
You have to actually prove all the underlined before any of the following can even be considered.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  Zippo,

Actually I have considered that. It spawned my visits to atheist boards in the first place.

I know morality exists, that it is an object rule based off the existence of God. I know love exists. If all of humanity suddenly died, love still remains as a good thing, in and of itself. I know that atheist do good an moral things.

Evolution tells me that love is simply a social fabrication to help us get along, which boils down to a method of gratifying my own desires. The Bible tells me that love is all about the other person. Evolution tells me love is all about myself.

If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

By the way, isn't everyong here, including you, everyone making the same assertions, that your line of belief is true? Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.
This is why I really hate religion, it infects everything in your life and makes it so that no matter how wonderful something is it becomes sour without religion.
Disgusting.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Winterwolf00's post
14-10-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 12:35 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 12:30 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Actually he did, according to Isaiah 45:6-7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Well then, I guess god would be responsible if god existed. It has been a long time since I read Isaiah.

The Bible itself is one of the best weapons against Christianity, so it's good to be familiar with it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
14-10-2014, 12:48 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 01:41 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 12:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  If evolution is true, I see no hope. Tell me why I should care about the human race continuing. I won't exist any more. Tell me why I should love my children? So long as an action is expedient to a person gratifying his own desires, tell me why he should not pursue it any more than a bacteria gobbles up all the resources it can.

Evolution is true, and not one major academic institution in the entire world teaches it is not true. Almost all of modern Biology, Medicine, and Genetics uses it as a foundational working hypothesis, which has not one shred of evidence to refute it. If you don't like the consequences of that, .... too bad. There is no Santa Claus. I know it's hard. You selfishness is astounding, thinking in terms of your individual self being what is ultimately important and not the human race.

You seem like a real "newbie" / beginner to adult human thought.


"I wonder if all the creationists yelling that Ebola may become airborne realize it now means they believe in evolution?"

This just semed to belong here Big Grin

- paraphrased from Charles Johnson @Green_Footballs in the God FB page
https://www.facebook.com/TheGoodLordAbov...=1&theater

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 12:45 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 12:35 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Well then, I guess god would be responsible if god existed. It has been a long time since I read Isaiah.

The Bible itself is one of the best weapons against Christianity, so it's good to be familiar with it.
I used to be an extremely involved Christian. I did bible studies, retreats, self studies, in the choir, etc. Since before my de-conversion I lost interest in the bible study stuff. My knowledge of the bible is not what it used to be and the old knowledge that is still around if mostly the catholic interpretation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: