Why I bother....
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-10-2014, 02:32 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 01:46 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  I must be missing something. What is it?

It is critical thinking skills.

You assume or desire a god to be the explanation for why we are nice to each other, but offer no proof or evidence to back it up. You come into this and every discussion about human beings with the position that god already exists, and then give this god credit for all the good behavioral concepts we live by. You also assume morals are objective, but again offer no proof or evidence.

What about the whole animal kingdom with regard to objective morals? Are chimps, elephants, lions, and wolves operating according to an objective moral code, or has evolution produced their good and bad behaviors? Why don't all animals behave the same? All species do not just tear each other apart, nor do they
think only for themselves, or sacrifice themselves for the well being of the total group all of the time. Nothing objective or absolute about it.

You just love to think you are the special one in this universe, which I find arrogant, self righteous, and quite cowardly. Face reality man - it won't send you into emotional distress as much as you may think.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Timber1025's post
14-10-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 02:25 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 02:13 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Define spirit.

Is spirit energy or matter or both? Is spirit pure energy? In which case how does it maintain complex interaction with reality without the aid of matter? Does it contain matter? If so then where and what exactly is it?

If spirit can interact with the world then is it subject to entropy or does it violate the laws of thermodynamics? Please provide evidence.

How is reality governed by the spirit? Do you have any physical, testable evidence for this that can be reproduced in laboratory conditions?

Exactly what parts of the human body consist of spirit?

What is 'the natural' if it does not govern reality?

Love this post Mathilda, maybe because it's how I think. Big Grin

I realized during my long agnostic phase that Christians live within the realm of the ill-defined. The more vague, the less you think about it, the more it makes sense.
I also realized there were other things that thrived within the realm of nebulous woo.

1.Self delusion
2.Unchecked confirmation bias
3.Charlatans
4.People that were fundamentally wrong about a great many things.
5.People that were wrong held up as leaders to perpetuate their delusion.

Charisma was the coin of the realm in Christianity. If you spewed a smooth line of BS, you could amass unthinking acolytes -and get rich and famous.

Still can and don't forget you can avoid paying taxes Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Full Circle's post
14-10-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 01:46 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  I can tell you an objective reason why we love our children, but you can't tell me, because you don't have an answer, at least that I've been able to find.

Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.


Evolved instinct.

Science can demonstrate that certain instincts exist and reproduce the results from experiments.

Science can provide reproducible evidence of certain instincts in terms of brain scans and can even partially explain the mechanisms involved.

Can you consider facts in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions as to why we love our children?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 08:58 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  By the way, isn't everyong here, including you, everyone making the same assertions, that your line of belief is true? Not one person here has asserted that God might be real.

Actually, no.

If you read my posts I make no assertions. The only part which could be considered an opinion would be when I typed "Don't get me started on the whole "evolution is just a theory" sentence".

I worded my my post to make no claims of any kind, did not mention any own beliefs and only pointed out details in your logic. I wrote it that way so that it would be an unbiased opinion.

There are lots of knowledgeable individuals on this forum.
Lots of people here could easily point out parts of the bible you might disagree with, go against your own morals or shine a different light on your concept of God. Many, such as Mathilda, can delve deeply into how the brain works for any reasoning behind spirituality. Many can go into details on evolution, or big bang or lots of scientific details.

The only purpose of my post was to maybe get you to consider the opposite from an unbiased perspective. (You used "If"statements. That made you sound open to possibilities.)

And, since I forgot to mention this before, welcome to the forums.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: Why I bother....
Quote:I can tell you an objective reason why we love our children, but you can't tell me, because you don't have an answer, at least that I've been able to find.

From a strictly evolutionary viewpoint, human infants are essentially helpless and require care. Individuals that provide that care ensure that their genes survive another generation. Isn't it great that evolution also provided us with a chemical high that reinforces that behavior and feels so good?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
14-10-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 02:30 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Grasshopper and many others,

If we continue on conversation, you may very well catch me in misquoting the Bible. I'm like every other guy, I can get lazy and coast on what I heard instead of what I've researched out myself. Honestly, your posts made me worried for moment. My quote was off the cuff based on general understanding, so I worried I put my foot in my mouth. However, this is not one of those cases.

Someone in the thread cautioned me about cherry picking information. You must do the same.

You quoted the use of evil of Isaiah 45:7 in the King James version. The Hebrew word for evil there is "rah," which can refer to plain evil, but also just bad stuff in general.

In context, God is showing contrasts. Light and dark. Peace and "not-peace" or peaceful times and not peaceful times. Peace and moral evil are not contrasts. So translate the word evil there to bad stuff happening.

God has brought down lots of bad things, such as wars, pestilence, drought and other calamities. But not moral evil. We do that. We might think these things happening is evil of God, but it's not. It's all deserved.

What makes you so sure that moral evils were not brought down from god? We could again go to the biblle to show the contrary, but I will give you first crack at providing a reference scripture regarding your claim. Prove it or you are making shit up once again.

Oh and...It is all DESERVED! WTF has happened to your brain? Too much woo has corrupted your sense of empathy and reason. Yeah thousands of babies perishing from all sorts of horrible conditions and diseases - all deserved.

What a toxic jackass! Thanks for reminding me why I took my kids out of sunday school.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Timber1025's post
14-10-2014, 02:50 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 03:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 01:46 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Atheism would hold that we are simply natural creatures, spawned into a universe by accident.

Here's where I see the atheist contradiction. The Big Bang, evolution and natural selection is all you have, but you still take umbrage and skirt the point about morality as if it's objective and universal. You said, "If you cannot love your children with evolution being more true than a god, then you are warped and an ignorant twit." But you still haven't answered the question as to why. I can tell you an objective reason why we love our children, but you can't tell me, because you don't have an answer, at least that I've been able to find.

I must be missing something. What is it?

What you're missing is knowledge of your cult and science. It's morality has changed many times. From the definition of marriage, to whether it's OK to murder children, it has changed, thus refuting your claim of "moral absolutes". There are no moral absolutes in your cult, even today. It's OK for you to kill people under some circumstances, according to your cult.

Nothing happens "by accident". Clearly you know nothing of Probability and Chaos Theory. Even if it did, you don't get to make up a myth just because it seems "more satisfying".

We love our children because it promotes survival of the species. Just live every other evolved higher animal. Apparently you never took a Biology course either.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: Why I bother....
Just curious Tshuko, what do you think of the worldwide genocide your god punished us with? AKA The Noahtic flood.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 02:25 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I realized during my long agnostic phase that Christians live within the realm of the ill-defined. The more vague, the less you think about it, the more it makes sense.

Exactly! I did consider using the same approach when Tsukho mentioned good, evil and free will. I decided not to because the thread would have been derailed for several pages arguing about these definitions and the point would have been missed.

Because Tsukho does not define these terms he does not have to worry that he contradicted himself. For example:

(14-10-2014 11:46 AM)Tsukho Wrote:  God did not create anything evil. Everything he created was good. Some of it (us and angels) were given free will. We could choose evil and have done so.

If God did not create evil then how come we have the option to choose evil? Did God not create everything? Are we evil ourselves if we choose evil? If so then how did God not create anything evil? Did we then become evil by exercising free-will?

These questions linger because the concepts of good, evil and free-will are not defined, particularly free-will. Once you start trying to define it you then find that it's a meaningless concept. e.g.

How to Dispose of the Free Will issue
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Mathilda's post
14-10-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: Why I bother....
(14-10-2014 02:30 PM)Tsukho Wrote:  Grasshopper and many others,

If we continue on conversation, you may very well catch me in misquoting the Bible. I'm like every other guy, I can get lazy and coast on what I heard instead of what I've researched out myself. Honestly, your posts made me worried for moment. My quote was off the cuff based on general understanding, so I worried I put my foot in my mouth. However, this is not one of those cases.

Someone in the thread cautioned me about cherry picking information. You must do the same.

You quoted the use of evil of Isaiah 45:7 in the King James version. The Hebrew word for evil there is "rah," which can refer to plain evil, but also just bad stuff in general.

In context, God is showing contrasts. Light and dark. Peace and "not-peace" or peaceful times and not peaceful times. Peace and moral evil are not contrasts. So translate the word evil there to bad stuff happening.

God has brought down lots of bad things, such as wars, pestilence, drought and other calamities. But not moral evil. We do that. We might think these things happening is evil of God, but it's not. It's all deserved.

Evil is evil, regardless of who is dishing it out. Credit and blame go hand in hand when someone is in charge, don't forget that.

If the stores in the bible would be true I can not think of a more evil being that one that would wipe out entire civilizations for the infractions of some. A truly omnipotent being would be capable of only getting the bad ones.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: