Why I'm a Theist
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24-07-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 12:54 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 12:46 PM)xieulong Wrote:  I don't think you're disagreeing with me too much. When I say "The difference is information", it includes interest, interpretation and understanding thereof. English is my second language, perhaps my poor writing was not good enough to convey the subtlety of what I meant to get across?

I interpreted it quite literary. But if you mean these things then I agree. And as for English it's same with me, my mother language is Polish.

(24-07-2015 12:46 PM)xieulong Wrote:  I do think however, the wealth and the ready availability of information is a very powerful tool against all sorts of woo, including ID. When someone is doubting or deciding, I think they tend to want to seek out and understand more information. The ease of access to information and abundance of which is of tremendous assistant on their journey to educate themselves. Take our "Share your own de-conversion story" thread; the majority of the shared stories are people gathering information and educating themselves.

Yes information could be powerful tool against nonsense but if one is firmly entrenched in particular brand of it then information does not matter. Information is only useful to those who search for answers; if one already found THE TRUTH then what else info he need?

Haha I like that. "THE TRUTH" Big Grin
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24-07-2015, 01:16 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 01:08 PM)xieulong Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 12:54 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I interpreted it quite literary. But if you mean these things then I agree. And as for English it's same with me, my mother language is Polish.


Yes information could be powerful tool against nonsense but if one is firmly entrenched in particular brand of it then information does not matter. Information is only useful to those who search for answers; if one already found THE TRUTH then what else info he need?

Haha I like that. "THE TRUTH" Big Grin

It would be something to laugh about if not for that some people takes it seriously.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Drewpaul - the "D" is silent :-D
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24-07-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Wow i'm always late to these things.

Welcome aboard Drewpaul?

A lot to read threw already. Seems like your making friends already. (I'm being sarcastic of coarse)

Your lengthy posts can be a bit frustrating to read. And you've already gained the attention of some of more lively debaters. Your a sheep in a lions den.

I do have a couple of questions, which you may have addressed already. So I apologizes for that if you have. These questions are the same one's i asked myself when I was a theist for ruffly 11 years.

How did you determiner it being only one deity? You refer to this god in singular a lot.

What deity have you leaned more to? (If american im guessing the Yahweh.) Or did you create your own? One that carries traits of other gods? One that us discovered threw personal experiences?

I assuming you feel that you've have better knowledge of this deity then any others might.

How did you move into your Theistic position? Did you start in a specific religion? Did your parents?

Just some quick ones to start off.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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24-07-2015, 01:33 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2015 01:48 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Quote:1. The fact the universe exists
2. The fact life exists
3. The fact sentient life exists.
4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.
5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.


So, basically, the argument from personal incredulity and argument from ignorance are your justifications for belief.

Quote:Dissent all you want, make your counter points and rebut everything I say but you don't have to also tell me my argument didn't persuade you...I know that already. The point of a debate is to persuade the unpersuaded not the folks I'm debating.

If you do persuade anyone, you will be persuading them based on the same fallacious arguments that have persuaded you. Congratulations.

Quote:I don't get this sentiment...don't you want debate? I ran a forum for a while and as an administrator I wanted lively debate. The name of the forum is Real life debates with theists but you would prefer theists didn't post?

The problem is, you came here, and in one of your first posts on your first thread, and preceded to tell us how we think, instead of asking us. You didn't introduce yourself, which since you previously ran a forum, you should know is bad etiquette. Then you posted the same arguments that have been around for centuries, as if we've never heard them and refuted them.

And you wonder why you have not been welcomed with open arms?
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24-07-2015, 01:35 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2015 01:47 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 12:03 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  3. The fact sentient life exists.

This is the same as points 1 and 2. Sentient life is evidence of sentient life, not what caused it to exist. When we look at the spectrum of sentience in life on earth and match it to what we know of biology and evolution there again don't seem to be any major obstacles to it being natural. Is it amazing? Yes. Is it miraculous? In the colloquial sense it is but in the supernatural sense there are no know miracles to compare it to.

Quote:4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.

In other words it has many of the same characteristics as things known to have been planned, engineered and designed and is why in effect scientists are able to reverse engineer the universe.

Given that we have no other universe to compare this one to we have no way to judge how unusual this state of affairs is. The main problem here is that you are again conflating the fact that intelligent agents can design things with the idea that anything that appears to you to be designed likely has an intelligence behind it.

You also overlook the fact that the universe as a whole is actually very hostile to life as we know it so if it was designed it certainly wasn't for us.

Quote:5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.

The fine tuning claim has been argued ad-nauseum. It makes many assumptions about what form life can take, how interdependent the constants are or are not, how many chances there are for different universes to form,etc. If you base your view on the assumption that humanity was the end goal then it seems incredibly unlikely that it could have come about without design but all that does is smuggle your conclusion in as a hidden premise.

As I've said, you've pointed to a lot of things we don't understand and concluded that makes a deity likely. Not one of your points is actually evidence for a god. They are all just open questions. To twist your analogy, it is as if you are looking down at a body at the base of a cliff and saying "see, it makes sense to think he fell" while I'm thinking maybe he fell, maybe he jumped, maybe he was pushed, maybe he was already at the bottom and had a heart attack, whatever. We won't actually know until we investigate and find more clues; and we may never know for sure.

The more I see it, the more I become convinced that abductive reasoning is the worst possible way to reach a conclusion. It has value for suggesting avenues of research but can't actually provide real answers.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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24-07-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 12:25 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  When normal people reject a claim (atheists excluded) its because they think the claim is untrue.

You can reject a claim because you think it is not true or because you don't think the claim has sufficient evidence to support it. Sometimes you believe a competing claim but sometimes you are just withholding belief until something convinces you.

Look at the claim "at least one alien has visited the earth". If you don't accept that because you have not seen compelling evidence does that mean you accept the claim "no alien has ever visited the earth"? If you believe that aliens might exist and might have better technology than we do then it is not irrational to believe that it is possible so you would be rational to reject both claims even though one or the other is actually true.

That is where many atheists, myself included, are with respect to "there is something that exists that could be called a god" and "nothing that could reasonably called a god exists".

Nothing you have presented so far is new or compelling. Your personal level of incredulity is not evidence.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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24-07-2015, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2015 02:14 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 12:25 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  When normal people reject a claim (atheists excluded) its because they think the claim is untrue. I don't know of anyone who rejects claims they think are true just to be obstinate or argumentative. Do you think the claim of theism is true?

Not true.

You seem to be addressing 2 horns of a dilemma simultaneously. Which is not prudent.

There are 2 truth claims with regards to the existence of a god or gods.

1. at least one god exists.

2. no gods exist.

While it is true that only one of these can be true (it is a true dilemma), it is possible to reject the first truth claim, without accepting the second, counter claim.

As in a court case. The prosecution's job is to prove guilt. But the defense's job is NOT to prove innocence, only that the prosecution has not met their burden of proof.

And it is the jury's job, to vote either 'guilty' or 'not guilty'. There is no vote of 'innocent'. Members of the jury may actually believe that the defendant is guilty, but vote not guilty because the persecution has not presented a strong enough case to meet their burden of proof.
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24-07-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 11:55 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  Stevil no supernatural event has been known to occur because no matter how unexpected or anti intuitive something is if it is observed to occur its considered 'natural'. The supernatural is what can't possibly happen, unless it turns out it can happen in which case its deemed natural. For instance we commonly do things today that would be considered a supernatural act 200 years ago. If a 1000 years from now scientist can create real universes would you consider that to be a natural phenomena or a supernatural one?
If they do it by thinking a universe into existence or by a spoken magic word then yes that would be supernatural.


(24-07-2015 11:55 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  Things known to have been intentionally caused and designed can be explained naturalistically as well. Does that mean they were created unintentionally by mindless forces?
Please elaborate?

Evolution cannot explain a rolex watch unless we use evolution to explain the existence of the human that created the watch.
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24-07-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 12:25 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:59 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How many forums have you peddled this shit on? How many atheist have you convinced of theism in the process? Does atheism make a claim in the rejection of theistic claims?

When normal people reject a claim (atheists excluded) its because they think the claim is untrue. I don't know of anyone who rejects claims they think are true just to be obstinate or argumentative. Do you think the claim of theism is true?

Atheists can always remain unconvinced (just as theists) because the fact is no one truly knows how the universe and subsequently how sentient beings came to exist and whether such was intentionally designed to occur or if it was an act of serendipity. Atheists can always justify there point of view by just pointing out no theist has ironclad incontrovertible evidence we are the result of a Creator. They can also make the bogus claim (as they so often do) that there is no evidence that supports theism.

You do not understand skepticism, and possibly rational thought. Consider

I reject claims that are not supported by evidence. That doesn't mean that I think it is untrue (I may or may not), simply that absent evidence the truth claim is not acceptable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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