Why I'm a Theist
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24-07-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
This analogy is about the universe and it's "beginning".

You open your freezer door and find an ice cube there. How long has been frozen ? Could you determine from its present state how long it had been there ? Would you know or not if the power was off for it to thaw and then freeze again at some point in the past ?

You know at some point that this cube was liquid, but is the liquid state the beginning of cubes existence ?

The ice cube may have a beginning and ending of its frozen state, but existence of the water goes back much further.

A god is not required for physical interactions to take place. The universe is all physics, energy, fields of force and so much more.

The planet we live on doesn't require a refrigerator to make ice. It doesn't need a god either to explain it's existence.

Every point you tried to make about a creator also applies to a magic rock, a universe pooping unicorn or a leprechaun scratching his balls and breathing a sigh of relief that manifests into a universe .

You can't accept that stuff happens naturally.
If it happens naturally then you can't control it.
That lack of control causes you to create gods.
Those gods control it all and then of course, they have your best interest at heart , so in turn, the universe now is all yours and if things don't go your way, you'll invent some way to explain why it didn't go your way.

And then this leads to all kinds of bad choices and horrible atrocities.

The only reason to be a theist is that you can't accept any other option.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-07-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Hello Braces,


Quote:I think part of the reason you received such a cold reception was because of your first paragraph. I'm sure you don't like others second guessing your innermost motivations, and we are the same way. In addition, I don't care whether your argument is considered an "intellectual belief" (whatever that may be) to my fellow atheists, Christians, Hindus, or the KKK. I just care about what's true. I try to keep an open mind, although I have to admit; I've been debating online and in person for 15 years (on the atheist side, longer on the Christian side before that) and I don't think it likely that I'll encounter an argument that will make me a theist, but ya never know. I agree with you that debates can persuade and inspire the audience. But I encourage you to think it possible to influence your interlocutor as well. After all, debates were instrumental in making me an atheist. It may seldom (if ever) happen in a flash-bang during the debate, but people continue to think of points made long after the debate is over. Also, saying that the two sides will never influence each other's world views implies that you yourself would also never change your position. It is my hope that you care about honesty and truth and are willing to consider ideas opposing your own.

Facts that support the atheist point of view would cause me to re-think theism. Not atheism as described by many as a 'lack of belief' or a rejection of the claim of theism. Real atheism, which means 'naturedidit' not Goddidit. To be convinced of atheism you have to believe that mindless forces always existed or somehow bootstrapped themselves into existence and caused the big bang which turned into a universe with the characteristics to create something utterly unlike the source it came from, life and sentience. I find it a bit humorous that many atheists marginalize theism by saying its magic or an extraordinary claim. What non-magical non-extraordinary claim are atheists making?

If we were to find life on some other planet or moon I think that would be a feather in atheists cap. If the theory of everything pans out. If scientists can actually replicate the way they say life occurred, if scientists can demonstrate this is one of a huge number of variable universes. Those things which might happen in my life time would be good arguments in favor of atheism.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless.

Quote:I don't think this is true. What about a god that abhors creation? Or an omnibenevolent god that can see the future of his creations and knows there is going to be nothing but suffering if it creates? Or a god so perfect it lacks nothing, and so feels no desire to create since it just sits there, basking in it's own perfection?

So you're saying if there was no universe and no life but somehow we could have this discussion and I claimed God created the universe and life you would counter claim its a god that abhors creation?

Quote:I think using a word like "imposed" is premature here.

That was pointed out already and I corrected it.

Quote:People have already mentioned the anthropic principal here, I'm not sure if you addressed it or not. Really it's pretty easy. Any type of (sentient) life that finds itself in a given universe is going to notice that they can live within said universe. Kinda inevitable.

Of course its a tautology. The question remains why did the conditions obtain that allow our existence? We don't deny they did obtain and would have to obtain for us to exist...but they didn't have to did they? Creating such exacting conditions would seem enormously difficult even if an intelligence wanted it to happen. Atheists say it happened by mindless forces that didn't give a rip if we existed.

Quote:Let me ask you a question. How do you tell something that was designed, as opposed to something that wasn't?

There is actually a type of science that does that very thing. Its a criminologists job to determine if a death is by natural causes or the result of a personal agent.
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24-07-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
If someone said they couldn't fly, would you ask them to prove they couldn't?

Why in this century, is proof even required against magic men living in the sky?
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24-07-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 03:36 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First, I'm not claiming theism is a fact, it's an opinion.

"I have had so many conversations or email exchanges with students in the last few years wherein I anger them by indicating that simply saying, "This is my opinion" does not preclude a connected statement from being dead wrong. It still baffles me that some feel those four words somehow give them carte blanche to spout batshit oratory or prose. And it really scares me that some of those students think education that challenges their ideas is equivalent to an attack on their beliefs.”
-Mick Cullen

http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s...ng-7611752

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-07-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
If their were no storms then the claim of a thunder god would be baseless.

This is your train of thought.

It is flawed.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-07-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 05:48 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  There is actually a type of science that does that very thing. Its a criminologists job to determine if a death is by natural causes or the result of a personal agent.

A criminologist does no such thing. A medical examiner or coroner determines the cause and manner of a death. And there is a manner "unknown" but there's no manner "God called him home."

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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24-07-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 06:23 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 03:36 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First, I'm not claiming theism is a fact, it's an opinion.

"I have had so many conversations or email exchanges with students in the last few years wherein I anger them by indicating that simply saying, "This is my opinion" does not preclude a connected statement from being dead wrong. It still baffles me that some feel those four words somehow give them carte blanche to spout batshit oratory or prose. And it really scares me that some of those students think education that challenges their ideas is equivalent to an attack on their beliefs.”
-Mick Cullen

http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s...ng-7611752

Maybe (only) for you. You can redefine it anyway you want for yourself.
It sure isn't for almost all believers.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-07-2015, 06:31 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 05:48 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Real atheism, which means 'naturedidit' not Goddidit.

Sorry, your definition is not the only one and you aren't the arbiter of the language. I am an atheist because I do not accept the claim "a god exists". That's it. Everything else is only tangentially related at best.

Quote:To be convinced of atheism you have to believe that mindless forces always existed or somehow bootstrapped themselves into existence and caused the big bang which turned into a universe with the characteristics to create something utterly unlike the source it came from, life and sentience.

Whereas theism claims that a conscious mind always existed or somehow bootstrapped itself into existence and deliberately created the universe we see.

Besides, if life and sentience are produced naturally then they are not utterly unlike their source. Your incredulity is showing.

Quote:I find it a bit humorous that many atheists marginalize theism by saying its magic or an extraordinary claim.

What is the effective difference between magic and supernatural causation? How do you distinguish one from the other? And it is an extraordinary claim, pretty much by definition.

Quote: What non-magical non-extraordinary claim are atheists making?

None that I am aware of unless I accept your mischaracterization of what atheism is and what it asserts. Come to think of it, even if I accept your use the claims are all ordinary and non-magical. Theists are the ones who refuse to accept that perhaps these things happened without supernatural intervention.

Quote:If we were to find life on some other planet or moon I think that would be a feather in atheists cap. If the theory of everything pans out. If scientists can actually replicate the way they say life occurred, if scientists can demonstrate this is one of a huge number of variable universes. Those things which might happen in my life time would be good arguments in favor of atheism.

So you are saying that until you are shown natural causes for things we don't currently know you will continue to assume supernatural ones. How is this not a god of the gaps argument again?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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24-07-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
I need to pee.

#sigh
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24-07-2015, 06:42 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 05:48 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
Quote:Let me ask you a question. How do you tell something that was designed, as opposed to something that wasn't?

There is actually a type of science that does that very thing. Its a criminologists job to determine if a death is by natural causes or the result of a personal agent.

Those are not at all the same thing. It's a coroner's or medical examiner's job to determine cause of death based on evidence of the body.

How do you determine something was designed?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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