Why I'm a Theist
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25-07-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First I want to debunk one of the most popular myths of atheism. The belief accepted as fact that there is no evidence in favor of theism. This belief is sacrosanct to atheists because if atheists were to admit there is evidence (facts) that comport with theism that would elevate theism to an intellectual belief and most atheists will have none of that. Atheist seek to marginalize theism as a faith proposition only without any basis in fact. Therefore no matter what lines of evidence I present atheists will dispute that any evidence has been submitted. So be it.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless. That alone wouldn't rule out the possibility a Creator who hasn't yet created the universe or life might exist but in lieu of anything to attribute to such a Creator they'd have ample reason to decline such a belief. Suppose a universe existed but unlike the universe we observe it was total complete and utter chaos with no laws of physics, no stars galaxies or planets and I said I think an intelligent Creator caused this universe to exist. Again atheists would question why I think an utterly chaotic universe with no discernible purpose would be created by an intelligent Creator. I could say it just seems that way to me but I still wouldn't have any real evidence an intelligent designer is necessary. After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces. What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.

In a murder case one of the first lines of evidence a lawyer will produce is a corpse. Although cases have been tried (and won) without one it sure helps. Just the fact of a corpse alone hardly means its murder or that a defendant is guilty and in a criminal case to get a conviction a lawyer must make a case that is beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation. My first line of evidence is...

1. The fact the universe exists

There are certain facts that must be true for anyone to think God exists. For humans to have any reason to think God might exist, we must have a place that allows us to live. There are in fact several facts and conditions that must be true in order for there to be any reason to think the existence of a Creator is true. None of those facts needs to be true for atheism to be true. Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true. If the universe didn't exist atheism might still be false (God might exist but not have created the universe) but there would be no evidential reason to raise the existence of God. Additional lines of evidence soon to follow...

So... you did a poll of atheists ? Who told you that you know what atheists think ? How many do you actually know ? Oh none. That's what I thought. I sure hope your "additional evidence" is better than the nonsense *non-evidence* you presented so far.

In fact the notion of a "creator" is incoherent. "Creation" is a action verb that requires (space)-time to be extant ALREADY. A god that "exists" does not *not exist*, therefore, Reality (existence AND non-existence) has always been LARGER than your deity. Reality remains unexplained by a deity that MUST participate in a larger Reality. An infinite eternal deity that "does something" is not infinite, as the action is a time-stamp in it's past and future, AND means it's not "timeless.

So sad. Too bad. So much for creators.

A poll of atheists? No That would require collecting and analyzing data. And that's just crazy talk Big Grin
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25-07-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
What is the purpose for coming here and telling us why you are a theist?

Looking for converts? Trying to convince yourself?

Did you notice the name of the forum?

Should we care why you are a theist?

Go somewhere else and find an more suitable audience...and take pops, and Q, and the other babblers with you. The door is right over here ->

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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25-07-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
At work.

Still looking forwards to OP's evidence of diety... Smile
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25-07-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What is the purpose for coming here and telling us why you are a theist?

Looking for converts? Trying to convince yourself?

Did you notice the name of the forum?

Should we care why you are a theist?

Go somewhere else and find an more suitable audience...and take pops, and Q, and the other babblers with you. The door is right over here ->

You know... I would like a thread where Pops, Q, and this guy discuss their beliefs without atheists commenting. What would that be like?Drooling
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25-07-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:12 PM)xieulong Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 12:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What is the purpose for coming here and telling us why you are a theist?

Looking for converts? Trying to convince yourself?

Did you notice the name of the forum?

Should we care why you are a theist?

Go somewhere else and find an more suitable audience...and take pops, and Q, and the other babblers with you. The door is right over here ->

You know... I would like a thread where Pops, Q, and this guy discuss their beliefs without atheists commenting. What would that be like?Drooling

Quiet - they only want to preach to us - not one another. Dodgy

I would welcome a thread where all their babble ended up....one with a big 'check your brain at the door' sign.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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25-07-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(24-07-2015 02:00 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 12:25 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  When normal people reject a claim (atheists excluded) its because they think the claim is untrue. I don't know of anyone who rejects claims they think are true just to be obstinate or argumentative. Do you think the claim of theism is true?

Not true.

You seem to be addressing 2 horns of a dilemma simultaneously. Which is not prudent.

There are 2 truth claims with regards to the existence of a god or gods.

1. at least one god exists.

2. no gods exist.

While it is true that only one of these can be true (it is a true dilemma), it is possible to reject the first truth claim, without accepting the second, counter claim.

As in a court case. The prosecution's job is to prove guilt. But the defense's job is NOT to prove innocence, only that the prosecution has not met their burden of proof.

And it is the jury's job, to vote either 'guilty' or 'not guilty'. There is no vote of 'innocent'. Members of the jury may actually believe that the defendant is guilty, but vote not guilty because the persecution has not presented a strong enough case to meet their burden of proof.

That is true of a criminal court case, since no crime is involved in this case (I don't think its a crime if it turns out we owe our existence to a Creator or natural forces) this would be a civil case. In a civil case a mere preponderance of evidence (more for than against) is the burden of evidence. If you start this case with the premise we don't deny God exists we just lack that belief you're already putting yourself in a hole. If as atheists (the weak kind) you don't deny God exists how much evidence would I need to present for impartial folks to opine God does exist?
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25-07-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Unfogged,

4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.

In other words it has many of the same characteristics as things known to have been planned, engineered and designed and is why in effect scientists are able to reverse engineer the universe.



Quote:Given that we have no other universe to compare this one to we have no way to judge how unusual this state of affairs is. The main problem here is that you are again conflating the fact that intelligent agents can design things with the idea that anything that appears to you to be designed likely has an intelligence behind it.

Not conflating...inferring. Given all the facts I've cited I'll let non-theists and non-atheists decide if the inference is merited. I'm making my case for theism, I don't expect you or other atheists to agree with one thing I say. I'd be disappointed if you did.

Quote:You also overlook the fact that the universe as a whole is actually very hostile to life as we know it so if it was designed it certainly wasn't for us.

I'm not sure how hostile the universe is as a whole to life. Some scientists believe the universe is teeming with life, others think we are alone. But its not up to me to make my case for theism and your counter case for atheism...that's your job.

Quote:The fine tuning claim has been argued ad-nauseum. It makes many assumptions about what form life can take, how interdependent the constants are or are not, how many chances there are for different universes to form,etc. If you base your view on the assumption that humanity was the end goal then it seems incredibly unlikely that it could have come about without design but all that does is smuggle your conclusion in as a hidden premise.

Its atheists who assume life might take other forms and that is definitely a 'naturalism in the gaps' argument. I'm making no assumptions about other life forms because we know of no other life forms. You should remember the atheist credo if there's no evidence of something it doesn't exist. My assumption didn't cause sentient humans to exist, my assumptions didn't cause the universe to exist with a myriad of conditions obtaining that not only allows and maintains life but appears to have caused it as well.

Quote:As I've said, you've pointed to a lot of things we don't understand and concluded that makes a deity likely.

I have cited five facts that comport with belief in theism. If what you're now saying is those five facts don't conclusively confirm the existence of a Creator I already stated this is an opinion. This is the classic atheist bait and switch, ask for evidence of a conclusion but accept nothing less than incontrovertible proof and then complain I haven't offered any evidence. My 'burden' in this case is to offer facts that support my belief. Since most atheists no longer deny God exists why would I need to do more?
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25-07-2015, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 12:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:19 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  That is true of a criminal court case, since no crime is involved in this case (I don't think its a crime if it turns out we owe our existence to a Creator or natural forces) this would be a civil case. In a civil case a mere preponderance of evidence (more for than against) is the burden of evidence. If you start this case with the premise we don't deny God exists we just lack that belief you're already putting yourself in a hole. If as atheists (the weak kind) you don't deny God exists how much evidence would I need to present for impartial folks to opine God does exist?

No. It's neither. There is not a shred of evidence for any of the gods. Even if there is one, if being honest is a crime, then that deity can go fuck itself. There is no "case". It's a false analogy. We don't "lack belief". There is no reason to posit that the ancient outdated concept of "belief" is of ANY value to humans in 2015.

The person you're trying to convince here is yourself. It's not going to work. Your attempt to tell yourself that somehow your nonsense is reasonable is a failure, and your strategy of getting someone else to buy into your bullshit to make it look more reasonable, to yourself, is doomed. We get it. You're desperate.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
At work.


(25-07-2015 12:19 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  If as atheists (the weak kind) you don't deny God exists how much evidence would I need to present for impartial folks to opine God does exist?

Hi! Big Grin

How about any proof or better yet evidence?. Smile
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25-07-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:19 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  If as atheists (the weak kind) you don't deny God exists how much evidence would I need to present for impartial folks to opine God does exist?

There is no amount, as you are unable to coherently define what a god is.
If you can't do that, (and you can't), there is no way of knowing what any evidence you might propose is supporting.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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