Why I'm a Theist
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25-07-2015, 01:42 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
I LOVE definitions, can I play?

Faith - the belief in something without evidence.

Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Religion - The embracement of delusion.

Smartass

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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25-07-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:26 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 01:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Irregardless is not a word.

Everything we observe to happen, and I mean everything, has proven to be explainable by natural, mindless forces, except that the actions of living beings are by definition "by mind", even though those minds themselves are operating by mindless forces. Our brains are biological computers, not transcendent supernatural effects. That's why The Human Brain Project is mapping this computer, so we understand it better.

The universe works by mindless chaos, ordered by the laws of physics, which cause chemistry to happen, which causes biology to happen, which causes what you call "mind" to happen. There is nothing anywhere in there, in anything I said above, or in anything with which I am familiar, which suggests or requires a transcendent, supernatural explanation.


It is also alleged by Theists who are scientists; they simply think that everything natural, which occurred after the First Mover set up the parameters for the universe's phyiscal laws, was part of the intent of God for our natural world. If you were arguing from this basis, maybe you would have a basis for a conclusion of Theistic Deism, but anything beyond that is your own invention, and is a "god of the gaps" argument, whether you want to claim the term or not. Life-making-life remains a 100% natural, physical phenomenon, just like every other natural, physical phenomenon we observe.

No amount of rhetoric on your part can change that fact without a special pleading, "Sure, everything ELSE is natural, but what about this one we haven't fully solved yet?" You've repeatedly tried to shift the burden of proof to us, to say "Since you haven't explained 100% of this phenomenon, how can you say it's not magic?" But we don't have one single reason to suspect that magic exists in your special pleading, where it is found nowhere else, and doesn't even seem likely to be required-- what about abiogenesis is it that you find requires intervention by the Deity reaching down to "meddle in the universe", so to speak?


You said it yourself: appear magical. We might have thought it was magic, once upon a time, but now we know better, like we now know that Germ Theory says disease is caused by germs, not by magic, so there's no longer a need to "bless" our food to hope the invisible spirits within don't poison us. So even if we saw technologies or powers that we didn't recognize/understand, there'd be no reason now to suppose it was magic. That's the rise of rationality in the human race via the Scientific Method.


You're welcome to see it that way, but there's no reason to jump to a special pleading that supposes some other force is at work, when it is not required at all the other places we have managed to exclude the prior supernatural explanations.


Actually, none of those things would be proof for atheism, since the same arguments now saying "Goddidit" would apply equally to those things. That's what makes your argument a "God of the Gaps" argument, since God disappears in your argument once the holes in knowledge are filled in.


They don't get to be called "facts" simply because you call them that. They are jumped-to conclusions of special pleading. Many of those conclusions are baseless or simply wrong, as the previous posters (and the ones at the other forum) have pointed out to you time and again.

Irregardless, your post was fucking awesome Big Grin

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25-07-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Everything we observe to happen, and I mean everything, has proven to be explainable by natural, mindless forces, ...

Wave collapse of quantum superposition is still mysterious.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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25-07-2015, 01:55 PM
The no claim claim...
I was sipping some coffee and thinking about the no claim claim many atheists make regarding theism. Lets try it with some other claim and see if it makes sense. Suppose I claim the Holocaust occurred and someone responds I reject the claim the holocaust occurred. I respond 'oh you mean you disagree the holocaust occurred? The person responds, 'no I don't deny the holocaust occurred, I just reject the claim the holocaust occurred. So you reject the claim the holocaust occurred but not the event itself. It would seem pointless to provide evidence the Holocaust occurred to someone who doesn't deny the holocaust occurred, just denies the claim it occurred. I think at that point I would respond where do you get your recreational drugs from? To me at least the no claim claim is just a dodge or debating tactic so atheists can say they have no case to defend. The problem is you're never going to convince the teeming masses of anything based on nothing more than a rejection of a claim when you don't actually reject the claim the claim makes....
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25-07-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Stating a fact doesn't justify anyone conclusion in any direction. It's merely a fact unconnected and doesn't mean much.

You don't actually know what is extraordinary if your data is limited. The facts don't always add up to answers. You have to accept that you can't always get answers from the certain amount of facts you have.

And stating it over and over, whether in sans serif, italic, or 24-point bold Times New Roman, doesn't make it any more valid.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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25-07-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
At work.

(25-07-2015 01:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  ...... Placed a post that seems very 'Godwin'........


Why are you talking....or rather seeming posting to yourself?

Also, happily awaiting that proof/evidence you were going to put on the boards. Big Grin
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25-07-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 01:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Everything we observe to happen, and I mean everything, has proven to be explainable by natural, mindless forces, ...

Wave collapse of quantum superposition is still mysterious.

You know well that "mysterious" does not translate to "guided by supernatural forces" rather than natural explanations. Yes, everything at the quantum level is spooky, which is what caused Einstein to utter his now-famous "God does not play at dice" comment. But you'd be hard pressed to find a quantum physicist claiming these effects have anything to do with supernatural causation; indeed, the Cophenhagen explanation of this effect is the standard.

I did once read a funny description on WikiPedia of attempts at "woo" on the subject... let me see if I can find it...

There. Heh, it was even called "Quantum Woo" as the name of the article.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I was sipping some coffee and thinking about the no claim claim many atheists make regarding theism. Lets try it with some other claim and see if it makes sense. Suppose I claim the Holocaust occurred and someone responds I reject the claim the holocaust occurred. I respond 'oh you mean you disagree the holocaust occurred? The person responds, 'no I don't deny the holocaust occurred, I just reject the claim the holocaust occurred. So you reject the claim the holocaust occurred but not the event itself. It would seem pointless to provide evidence the Holocaust occurred to someone who doesn't deny the holocaust occurred, just denies the claim it occurred. I think at that point I would respond where do you get your recreational drugs from? To me at least the no claim claim is just a dodge or debating tactic so atheists can say they have no case to defend. The problem is you're never going to convince the teeming masses of anything based on nothing more than a rejection of a claim when you don't actually reject the claim the claim makes....




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25-07-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What is the purpose for coming here and telling us why you are a theist?

Looking for converts? Trying to convince yourself?

Did you notice the name of the forum?

Should we care why you are a theist?

Go somewhere else and find an more suitable audience...and take pops, and Q, and the other babblers with you. The door is right over here ->

Are you being forced against your will to look at these posts?
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25-07-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I was sipping some coffee and thinking about the no claim claim many atheists make regarding theism. Lets try it with some other claim and see if it makes sense. Suppose I claim the Holocaust occurred and someone responds I reject the claim the holocaust occurred. I respond 'oh you mean you disagree the holocaust occurred? The person responds, 'no I don't deny the holocaust occurred, I just reject the claim the holocaust occurred. So you reject the claim the holocaust occurred but not the event itself. It would seem pointless to provide evidence the Holocaust occurred to someone who doesn't deny the holocaust occurred, just denies the claim it occurred. I think at that point I would respond where do you get your recreational drugs from? To me at least the no claim claim is just a dodge or debating tactic so atheists can say they have no case to defend. The problem is you're never going to convince the teeming masses of anything based on nothing more than a rejection of a claim when you don't actually reject the claim the claim makes....

If you claim that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, it is for you to provide the evidence. If you cannot supply the evidence, it does not mean that the event necessarily cannot have occurred, only that it seems that much more unlikely. Especially if the only evidence that you *can* supply is crappy reasoning and some allegedly true book of doubtful provenance, you can see why one would be skeptical.

Now please use a more tasteful example. Why do you fuckers always fixate on Hitler and the Holocaust? What would be wrong with fairies at the bottom of the garden as an example?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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