Why I'm a Theist
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25-07-2015, 02:06 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Suppose I claim the Holocaust occurred and someone responds I reject the claim the holocaust occurred. I respond 'oh you mean you disagree the holocaust occurred? The person responds, 'no I don't deny the holocaust occurred, I just reject the claim the holocaust occurred. So you reject the claim the holocaust occurred but not the event itself. It would seem pointless to provide evidence the Holocaust occurred to someone who doesn't deny the holocaust occurred, just denies the claim it occurred.

Actually, we would be 100% correct in asking you to support your claim of the Holocaust with more than an assertion that it happened.

A better example would be for me to tell you about how the Americans wiped out 16 million people of the Woo Tribe in the Second World War. You'd probably feel reasonable about saying you rejected this claim until I provided solid evidence of not only where/when/how this happened, but who the fuck the Woo People even were. If I then turned around and asked you why do you affirmatively deny the Woo people, you'd be perfectly justified in punching me in the nose and walking away.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 02:31 PM by Anjele.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 02:05 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 12:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What is the purpose for coming here and telling us why you are a theist?

Looking for converts? Trying to convince yourself?

Did you notice the name of the forum?

Should we care why you are a theist?

Go somewhere else and find an more suitable audience...and take pops, and Q, and the other babblers with you. The door is right over here ->

Are you being forced against your will to look at these posts?

I am compelled to see if one of you preachy fuckers ever actually comes up with something that makes sense...so far, you are true to form...ignorant and arrogant.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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25-07-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Suppose I claim the Holocaust occurred and someone responds I reject the claim the holocaust occurred. I respond 'oh you mean you disagree the holocaust occurred? The person responds, 'no I don't deny the holocaust occurred, I just reject the claim the holocaust occurred. So you reject the claim the holocaust occurred but not the event itself.

What you aren't getting is that somebody who doesn't deny that the holocaust doesn't necessarily have to accept that it did either. Saying "I don't deny the holocaust occurred" is not the same thing as saying "I believe that it did occur". There are 2 possible claims: (1) the holocaust happened and (2) the holocaust did not happen. It is not rational to deny both of those claims since one must be true but it is rational to reject both claims if you do not have sufficient evidence to accept either one. If you are unconvinced of either claim then you should withhold belief from both of them.

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25-07-2015, 02:22 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Can we get off the subject of the Holocaust and use fairies *please*. I have a nasty suspicion that this fucker brought up the Holocaust specifically and deliberately.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-07-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 12:51 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I'm appealing to facts we do know. Of the 5 facts I cited in favor of theism not one atheist has denied they are facts. If new facts come to life shouldn't that be reason for me to re-evaluate my claim?

They may be facts, but they are not evidence.
You are offering your interpretations and opinions as evidence, and that is the problem.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
At work.


(25-07-2015 02:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can we get off the subject of the Holocaust and use fairies *please*. I have a nasty suspicion that this fucker brought up the Holocaust specifically and deliberately.

I find it interesting that the OP seems to want to de-rail their own thread........
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25-07-2015, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 02:33 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 02:01 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 01:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Wave collapse of quantum superposition is still mysterious.

You know well that "mysterious" does not translate to "guided by supernatural forces" rather than natural explanations. Yes, everything at the quantum level is spooky, which is what caused Einstein to utter his now-famous "God does not play at dice" comment. But you'd be hard pressed to find a quantum physicist claiming these effects have anything to do with supernatural causation; indeed, the Cophenhagen explanation of this effect is the standard.

Of course. I think the many-worlds interpretation may be surpassing the Copenhagen interpretation in the community but I'm not sure. And yes, there's nothing supernatural about it, it's just spooky action at a distance. If we accept that the wave collapse requires an external observer then all there is left is to define "an external observer". There are those like Robert Lanza who argue that an "observer" requires consciousness and leads to biocentrism. There are others like John Wheeler who argue that a participatory universe does not require the observer to be conscious. Any rock will work.

#sigh
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25-07-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
I don't think it was a Godwin's Law violation or a disingenuous attempt to make us look like Nazi sympathizers. I read the post as more of a "THIS is a thing no one can deny, so if I proposed it to you would you say rejecting the claim is the same as having a position akin to Holocaust Deniers, a postitive assertion."

The problem, of course, is that we have an overwhelming amount of positive evidence for the Holocaust, such that it requires an astounding degree of personal incredulity to deny the evidence. There's a huge difference between that and an argument of special pleading for Goddidit in the gaps of our knowledge about the universe.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Here are 5 "facts" about leprechauns: (Does that mean they exist?)

1. Lucky Charms mascot.
2. They typically wear green clothes.
3. They hide a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
4. According to Wiki--they live in the forest or garden.
5. They engage in mischief.
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25-07-2015, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 02:41 PM by Chas.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(25-07-2015 01:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 01:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Everything we observe to happen, and I mean everything, has proven to be explainable by natural, mindless forces, ...

Wave collapse of quantum superposition is still mysterious.

Especially if you assume that an actual wave is actually collapsing. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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