Why I'm a Theist
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23-07-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First I want to debunk one of the most popular myths of atheism. The belief accepted as fact that there is no evidence in favor of theism. This belief is sacrosanct to atheists because if atheists were to admit there is evidence (facts) that comport with theism that would elevate theism to an intellectual belief and most atheists will have none of that. Atheist seek to marginalize theism as a faith proposition only without any basis in fact. Therefore no matter what lines of evidence I present atheists will dispute that any evidence has been submitted. So be it.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless. That alone wouldn't rule out the possibility a Creator who hasn't yet created the universe or life might exist but in lieu of anything to attribute to such a Creator they'd have ample reason to decline such a belief. Suppose a universe existed but unlike the universe we observe it was total complete and utter chaos with no laws of physics, no stars galaxies or planets and I said I think an intelligent Creator caused this universe to exist. Again atheists would question why I think an utterly chaotic universe with no discernible purpose would be created by an intelligent Creator. I could say it just seems that way to me but I still wouldn't have any real evidence an intelligent designer is necessary. After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces. What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.

In a murder case one of the first lines of evidence a lawyer will produce is a corpse. Although cases have been tried (and won) without one it sure helps. Just the fact of a corpse alone hardly means its murder or that a defendant is guilty and in a criminal case to get a conviction a lawyer must make a case that is beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation. My first line of evidence is...

1. The fact the universe exists

There are certain facts that must be true for anyone to think God exists. For humans to have any reason to think God might exist, we must have a place that allows us to live. There are in fact several facts and conditions that must be true in order for there to be any reason to think the existence of a Creator is true. None of those facts needs to be true for atheism to be true. Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true. If the universe didn't exist atheism might still be false (God might exist but not have created the universe) but there would be no evidential reason to raise the existence of God. Additional lines of evidence soon to follow...

Ah, another expert on what atheists think....

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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23-07-2015, 05:02 PM
Why I'm a Theist
The universe exists is evidence the universe exists. Try again

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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23-07-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First I want to debunk one of the most popular myths of atheism. The belief accepted as fact that there is no evidence in favor of theism. This belief is sacrosanct to atheists because if atheists were to admit there is evidence (facts) that comport with theism that would elevate theism to an intellectual belief and most atheists will have none of that. Atheist seek to marginalize theism as a faith proposition only without any basis in fact. Therefore no matter what lines of evidence I present atheists will dispute that any evidence has been submitted. So be it.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless. That alone wouldn't rule out the possibility a Creator who hasn't yet created the universe or life might exist but in lieu of anything to attribute to such a Creator they'd have ample reason to decline such a belief. Suppose a universe existed but unlike the universe we observe it was total complete and utter chaos with no laws of physics, no stars galaxies or planets and I said I think an intelligent Creator caused this universe to exist. Again atheists would question why I think an utterly chaotic universe with no discernible purpose would be created by an intelligent Creator. I could say it just seems that way to me but I still wouldn't have any real evidence an intelligent designer is necessary. After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces. What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.

In a murder case one of the first lines of evidence a lawyer will produce is a corpse. Although cases have been tried (and won) without one it sure helps. Just the fact of a corpse alone hardly means its murder or that a defendant is guilty and in a criminal case to get a conviction a lawyer must make a case that is beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation. My first line of evidence is...

1. The fact the universe exists

There are certain facts that must be true for anyone to think God exists. For humans to have any reason to think God might exist, we must have a place that allows us to live. There are in fact several facts and conditions that must be true in order for there to be any reason to think the existence of a Creator is true. None of those facts needs to be true for atheism to be true. Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true. If the universe didn't exist atheism might still be false (God might exist but not have created the universe) but there would be no evidential reason to raise the existence of God. Additional lines of evidence soon to follow...

A cause for something does not demand a deity. Fucking hell, did you even bother to do a search of the multiple threads concerning the lame Kalam argument?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-07-2015, 05:08 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 04:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 04:06 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  An opinion on any matter can be disputed just on the basis that its an opinion and not irrefutable fact. If either position were indisputable fact we'd find something better to argue about and only the cranks would be left to debate it. I view atheists as the loyal opposition and I assume not a single atheist will be convinced or persuaded by this thread. Hopefully they're some undecided lurkers in this forum and they can decide for themselves the merit of this debate.

Should you find yourself over run with people and replies, you might want to pick a person to debate and go to the Colosseum section. There you can debate one on one in the boxing ring.

Thanks for the advice. I kind of like the free for all of an open debate. I won't respond to one liners or personal attacks (so far everyone seems civil) thoughtful replies will get the most attention.
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23-07-2015, 05:08 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
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23-07-2015, 05:11 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First I want to debunk one of the most popular myths of atheism. The belief accepted as fact that there is no evidence in favor of theism. This belief is sacrosanct to atheists because if atheists were to admit there is evidence (facts) that comport with theism that would elevate theism to an intellectual belief and most atheists will have none of that. Atheist seek to marginalize theism as a faith proposition only without any basis in fact. Therefore no matter what lines of evidence I present atheists will dispute that any evidence has been submitted. So be it.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless. That alone wouldn't rule out the possibility a Creator who hasn't yet created the universe or life might exist but in lieu of anything to attribute to such a Creator they'd have ample reason to decline such a belief. Suppose a universe existed but unlike the universe we observe it was total complete and utter chaos with no laws of physics, no stars galaxies or planets and I said I think an intelligent Creator caused this universe to exist. Again atheists would question why I think an utterly chaotic universe with no discernible purpose would be created by an intelligent Creator. I could say it just seems that way to me but I still wouldn't have any real evidence an intelligent designer is necessary. After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces. What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.

In a murder case one of the first lines of evidence a lawyer will produce is a corpse. Although cases have been tried (and won) without one it sure helps. Just the fact of a corpse alone hardly means its murder or that a defendant is guilty and in a criminal case to get a conviction a lawyer must make a case that is beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation. My first line of evidence is...

1. The fact the universe exists

There are certain facts that must be true for anyone to think God exists. For humans to have any reason to think God might exist, we must have a place that allows us to live. There are in fact several facts and conditions that must be true in order for there to be any reason to think the existence of a Creator is true. None of those facts needs to be true for atheism to be true. Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true. If the universe didn't exist atheism might still be false (God might exist but not have created the universe) but there would be no evidential reason to raise the existence of God. Additional lines of evidence soon to follow...

Ah, another expert on what atheists think....

This is a good example of the kind of one sentence no substance response that I will ignore...
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23-07-2015, 05:12 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:11 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 05:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ah, another expert on what atheists think....

This is a good example of the kind of one sentence no substance response that I will ignore...

You don't present substance in your responses, why do you expect substance in replies?

Hell, you can't even admit when you're wrong. For example, does atheism make a claim in the rejection of theistic claims?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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23-07-2015, 05:20 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 07:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First I want to debunk one of the most popular myths of atheism. The belief accepted as fact that there is no evidence in favor of theism. This belief is sacrosanct to atheists because if atheists were to admit there is evidence (facts) that comport with theism that would elevate theism to an intellectual belief and most atheists will have none of that. Atheist seek to marginalize theism as a faith proposition only without any basis in fact. Therefore no matter what lines of evidence I present atheists will dispute that any evidence has been submitted. So be it.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless. That alone wouldn't rule out the possibility a Creator who hasn't yet created the universe or life might exist but in lieu of anything to attribute to such a Creator they'd have ample reason to decline such a belief. Suppose a universe existed but unlike the universe we observe it was total complete and utter chaos with no laws of physics, no stars galaxies or planets and I said I think an intelligent Creator caused this universe to exist. Again atheists would question why I think an utterly chaotic universe with no discernible purpose would be created by an intelligent Creator. I could say it just seems that way to me but I still wouldn't have any real evidence an intelligent designer is necessary. After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces. What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.

In a murder case one of the first lines of evidence a lawyer will produce is a corpse. Although cases have been tried (and won) without one it sure helps. Just the fact of a corpse alone hardly means its murder or that a defendant is guilty and in a criminal case to get a conviction a lawyer must make a case that is beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation. My first line of evidence is...

1. The fact the universe exists

There are certain facts that must be true for anyone to think God exists. For humans to have any reason to think God might exist, we must have a place that allows us to live. There are in fact several facts and conditions that must be true in order for there to be any reason to think the existence of a Creator is true. None of those facts needs to be true for atheism to be true. Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true. If the universe didn't exist atheism might still be false (God might exist but not have created the universe) but there would be no evidential reason to raise the existence of God. Additional lines of evidence soon to follow...

So... you did a poll of atheists ? Who told you that you know what atheists think ? How many do you actually know ? Oh none. That's what I thought. I sure hope your "additional evidence" is better than the nonsense *non-evidence* you presented so far.

In fact the notion of a "creator" is incoherent. "Creation" is a action verb that requires (space)-time to be extant ALREADY. A god that "exists" does not *not exist*, therefore, Reality (existence AND non-existence) has always been LARGER than your deity. Reality remains unexplained by a deity that MUST participate in a larger Reality. An infinite eternal deity that "does something" is not infinite, as the action is a time-stamp in it's past and future, AND means it's not "timeless.

So sad. Too bad. So much for creators.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-07-2015, 05:22 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  First I want to debunk one of the most popular myths of atheism. The belief accepted as fact that there is no evidence in favor of theism. This belief is sacrosanct to atheists because if atheists were to admit there is evidence (facts) that comport with theism that would elevate theism to an intellectual belief and most atheists will have none of that. Atheist seek to marginalize theism as a faith proposition only without any basis in fact. Therefore no matter what lines of evidence I present atheists will dispute that any evidence has been submitted. So be it.

If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. If somehow we could have this discussion (even though we wouldn't be around) I could say I think a Creator of the universe and life exists the atheists would rightly point out that no universe or life exists so your claim of a Creator is baseless. That alone wouldn't rule out the possibility a Creator who hasn't yet created the universe or life might exist but in lieu of anything to attribute to such a Creator they'd have ample reason to decline such a belief. Suppose a universe existed but unlike the universe we observe it was total complete and utter chaos with no laws of physics, no stars galaxies or planets and I said I think an intelligent Creator caused this universe to exist. Again atheists would question why I think an utterly chaotic universe with no discernible purpose would be created by an intelligent Creator. I could say it just seems that way to me but I still wouldn't have any real evidence an intelligent designer is necessary. After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces. What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.

In a murder case one of the first lines of evidence a lawyer will produce is a corpse. Although cases have been tried (and won) without one it sure helps. Just the fact of a corpse alone hardly means its murder or that a defendant is guilty and in a criminal case to get a conviction a lawyer must make a case that is beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation. My first line of evidence is...

1. The fact the universe exists

There are certain facts that must be true for anyone to think God exists. For humans to have any reason to think God might exist, we must have a place that allows us to live. There are in fact several facts and conditions that must be true in order for there to be any reason to think the existence of a Creator is true. None of those facts needs to be true for atheism to be true. Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true. If the universe didn't exist atheism might still be false (God might exist but not have created the universe) but there would be no evidential reason to raise the existence of God. Additional lines of evidence soon to follow...

So... you did a poll of atheists ? Who told you that you know what atheists think ? How many do you actually know ? Oh none. That's what I thought. I sure hope your "additional evidence" is better than the nonsense *non-evidence* you presented so far.

In fact the notion of a "creator" is incoherent. "Creation" is a action verb that requires (space)-time to be extant ALREADY. A god that "exists" does not *not exist*, therefore, Reality (existence AND non-existence) has always been LARGER than your deity. Reality remains unexplained by a deity that MUST participate in a larger Reality. An infinite eternal deity that "does something" is not infinite, as the action is time-stamp in it's past and future, AND means it's not "timeless.

So sad. Too bad. So much for creators.

He took his info from the same poll Tomasia did

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23-07-2015, 05:23 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
2. The fact life exists

Again this might seem like a trivial fact but I don't think anyone disputes life exists. If life didn't exist, we wouldn't be here to debate whether we owe our existence to a Creator, its the fact life exists that raises the question whether we owe our existence to mindless forces that didn't intend to cause life or cause the existence of a universe that allows life in the first place. There is no condition that needs to true for atheism to possibly be true. There are conditions that need to occur in order for us to have a debate about whether a Creator of the universe exists. Two of those conditions are a suitable place for us to live and for life to exist. No one would postulate God doesn't exist therefore I expect a universe with life to exist. The existence of the universe and life are red flags that lead folks to question the narrative that we owe our existence to mindless forces that didn't plan, design or intend either the universe or life, yet inspite of neither the desire, the intent or the plan to create life, without knowledge of how to do it according to the atheist counter claim (that nearly none of them defends) mindless forces stumbled blindly upon the formula to create life and cause a universe that allows life. Moreover if we are to believe the atheist narrative, lifeless mindless forces created something totally unlike itself...life. Yet the only way we have observed life coming about is through life. We have yet to observe life coming from non-life. The theory is that's how it came about but evidently we haven't been able to figure out using intelligence how to cause life that mindless forces are alleged to have produced without trying or knowing how.

If the universe didn't exist and life didn't exist its still possible a Creator who hasn't created anything might exist, but there would be no evidence to suspect there was a Creator. Under such a circumstance the atheists claim there is no evidence of a Creator would be true. The claim there is no evidence of a Creator is false. Now, let's be clear, the two lines of evidence I presented so far obviously doesn't persuade any atheist that God exists. However, evidence doesn't become non-evidence just because you don't agree with the conclusion. I know exactly why most atheists maintain vehemently the position there is no evidence in favor of theism. Most atheists will always deny there is evidence in favor of theism because they like to marginalize theism as strictly a faith proposition. If they were to admit there is evidence that favors the theist narrative then its no longer just a faith proposition that can be easily dismissed.
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