Why I'm a Theist
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23-07-2015, 05:25 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:23 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  2. The fact life exists

Again this might seem like a trivial fact but I don't think anyone disputes life exists. If life didn't exist, we wouldn't be here to debate whether we owe our existence to a Creator, its the fact life exists that raises the question whether we owe our existence to mindless forces that didn't intend to cause life or cause the existence of a universe that allows life in the first place. There is no condition that needs to true for atheism to possibly be true. There are conditions that need to occur in order for us to have a debate about whether a Creator of the universe exists. Two of those conditions are a suitable place for us to live and for life to exist. No one would postulate God doesn't exist therefore I expect a universe with life to exist. The existence of the universe and life are red flags that lead folks to question the narrative that we owe our existence to mindless forces that didn't plan, design or intend either the universe or life, yet inspite of neither the desire, the intent or the plan to create life, without knowledge of how to do it according to the atheist counter claim (that nearly none of them defends) mindless forces stumbled blindly upon the formula to create life and cause a universe that allows life. Moreover if we are to believe the atheist narrative, lifeless mindless forces created something totally unlike itself...life. Yet the only way we have observed life coming about is through life. We have yet to observe life coming from non-life. The theory is that's how it came about but evidently we haven't been able to figure out using intelligence how to cause life that mindless forces are alleged to have produced without trying or knowing how.

If the universe didn't exist and life didn't exist its still possible a Creator who hasn't created anything might exist, but there would be no evidence to suspect there was a Creator. Under such a circumstance the atheists claim there is no evidence of a Creator would be true. The claim there is no evidence of a Creator is false. Now, let's be clear, the two lines of evidence I presented so far obviously doesn't persuade any atheist that God exists. However, evidence doesn't become non-evidence just because you don't agree with the conclusion. I know exactly why most atheists maintain vehemently the position there is no evidence in favor of theism. Most atheists will always deny there is evidence in favor of theism because they like to marginalize theism as strictly a faith proposition. If they were to admit there is evidence that favors the theist narrative then its no longer just a faith proposition that can be easily dismissed.

It's getting worse. Facepalm

Life doesn't require a supernatural explanation.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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23-07-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
The Anthropic Principle (above) has been debunked, a million times, and does not require a god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_...incidences

In this universe order arises spontaneously. No gods needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-07-2015, 05:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 03:36 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I'm a secular theist.

Wouldn't that just be Deism?

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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23-07-2015, 05:34 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Hi DREW! I see you were banned from atheistforums.com

I bet I can predict your point #3, because I'm MAGIC:

Quote:The third fact (evidence) that leads me to conclude we are the result of a Creator is:

3. The existence of sentient life.

As unlikely as it might seem that mindless lifeless forces would without plan, design or intent without a degree in physics or biology would cause a universe to exist with the conditions necessary for life, it would seem even more unlikely such forces would also cause sentient intelligent life to exist. No one would propose that mindless forces exist; therefore I predict the existence of a universe that supports life and sentient life so that the intelligent beings can debate the cause of their existence. There is a reason why the vast majority of intelligent humans believe we are the result of a Creator and it’s not because they are ignorant, or brainwashed, or brought up to believe in God. It’s because between the two competing hypothesis:

1. That the universe and life was intentionally caused, engineered and designed by a Creator
2. That mindless forces without plan or intent fortuitously caused the universe and life to exist.

The belief we are the intentional result of a Creator is more plausible given the evidence available to us.

Atheists continue to claim the reason they don’t believe we are the result of a Creator is because there is no evidentiary reason to believe there is a God. If there was no universe, no life and no sentient life I would absolutely agree, there is no evidence of a Creator. The fact there is a universe in a configuration that not only caused life but also maintains life and produced sentient life is the very evidence they claim doesn’t exist. Or are atheists going to say the existence of the universe, life and sentient life is evidence that mindless forces without plan intent or knowledge caused our existence?

Did I get it?

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5404.90

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 05:35 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Buckyball,

Quote:In fact the notion of a "creator" is incoherent. "Creation" is a action verb that requires (space)-time to be extant ALREADY. A god that "exists" does not *not exist*, therefore, Reality (existence AND non-existence) has always been LARGER than your deity. Reality remains unexplained by a deity that MUST participate in a larger Reality. An infinite eternal deity that "does something" is not infinite, as the action is time-stamp in it's past and future, AND means it's not "timeless.

What you've actually accomplished is to demonstrate why a 'naturalistic' cause of the universe (or reality) is a non-starter because natural causes would require space-time to be extant. What you've done is taken the concept of a transcendent deity (you may want to look up what transcendent means) replaced that with a mortal deity and then complained its not possible. That's like someone who shoots his parents and then complains about being an orphan. But by all means if a deity is incapable of causing a universe to exist for the reasons you cited how did mechanistic forces accomplish it? Or do you deny a universe exists?
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23-07-2015, 05:39 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:35 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Buckyball,

Quote:In fact the notion of a "creator" is incoherent. "Creation" is a action verb that requires (space)-time to be extant ALREADY. A god that "exists" does not *not exist*, therefore, Reality (existence AND non-existence) has always been LARGER than your deity. Reality remains unexplained by a deity that MUST participate in a larger Reality. An infinite eternal deity that "does something" is not infinite, as the action is time-stamp in it's past and future, AND means it's not "timeless.

What you've actually accomplished is to demonstrate why a 'naturalistic' cause of the universe (or reality) is a non-starter because natural causes would require space-time to be extant. What you've done is taken the concept of a transcendent deity (you may want to look up what transcendent means) replaced that with a mortal deity and then complained its not possible. That's like someone who shoots his parents and then complains about being an orphan. But by all means if a deity is incapable of causing a universe to exist for the reasons you cited how did mechanistic forces accomplish it? Or do you deny a universe exists?

Universe exists is evidence the universe exists. It does not logically follow that because the universe exists, a god exists or that it was created or that there was a "before" the Big Bang.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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23-07-2015, 05:39 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:34 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Hi DREW! I see you were banned from atheistforums.com

I bet I can predict your point #3, because I'm MAGIC:

Quote:The third fact (evidence) that leads me to conclude we are the result of a Creator is:

3. The existence of sentient life.

As unlikely as it might seem that mindless lifeless forces would without plan, design or intent without a degree in physics or biology would cause a universe to exist with the conditions necessary for life, it would seem even more unlikely such forces would also cause sentient intelligent life to exist. No one would propose that mindless forces exist; therefore I predict the existence of a universe that supports life and sentient life so that the intelligent beings can debate the cause of their existence. There is a reason why the vast majority of intelligent humans believe we are the result of a Creator and it’s not because they are ignorant, or brainwashed, or brought up to believe in God. It’s because between the two competing hypothesis:

1. That the universe and life was intentionally caused, engineered and designed by a Creator
2. That mindless forces without plan or intent fortuitously caused the universe and life to exist.

The belief we are the intentional result of a Creator is more plausible given the evidence available to us.

Atheists continue to claim the reason they don’t believe we are the result of a Creator is because there is no evidentiary reason to believe there is a God. If there was no universe, no life and no sentient life I would absolutely agree, there is no evidence of a Creator. The fact there is a universe in a configuration that not only caused life but also maintains life and produced sentient life is the very evidence they claim doesn’t exist. Or are atheists going to say the existence of the universe, life and sentient life is evidence that mindless forces without plan intent or knowledge caused our existence?

Did I get it?

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5404.90

Consider a dishonest theist? I've never encountered one Dodgy

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23-07-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:34 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Hi DREW! I see you were banned from atheistforums.com

I bet I can predict your point #3, because I'm MAGIC:

Quote:The third fact (evidence) that leads me to conclude we are the result of a Creator is:

3. The existence of sentient life.

As unlikely as it might seem that mindless lifeless forces would without plan, design or intent without a degree in physics or biology would cause a universe to exist with the conditions necessary for life, it would seem even more unlikely such forces would also cause sentient intelligent life to exist. No one would propose that mindless forces exist; therefore I predict the existence of a universe that supports life and sentient life so that the intelligent beings can debate the cause of their existence. There is a reason why the vast majority of intelligent humans believe we are the result of a Creator and it’s not because they are ignorant, or brainwashed, or brought up to believe in God. It’s because between the two competing hypothesis:

1. That the universe and life was intentionally caused, engineered and designed by a Creator
2. That mindless forces without plan or intent fortuitously caused the universe and life to exist.

The belief we are the intentional result of a Creator is more plausible given the evidence available to us.

Atheists continue to claim the reason they don’t believe we are the result of a Creator is because there is no evidentiary reason to believe there is a God. If there was no universe, no life and no sentient life I would absolutely agree, there is no evidence of a Creator. The fact there is a universe in a configuration that not only caused life but also maintains life and produced sentient life is the very evidence they claim doesn’t exist. Or are atheists going to say the existence of the universe, life and sentient life is evidence that mindless forces without plan intent or knowledge caused our existence?

Did I get it?

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5404.90

I would be proud of being banned from that forum but all I did to warrant being banned was to make my case for theism. That's how that forum squelches dissent.

I plan to make the same case here...if its tolerated. We mustn't let freethinkers think too freely...
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23-07-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
I especially like that, in the post right above the one I just cited, "DrewM" the banned spammer made it clear, in typing it twice, that he has no idea what the plural of hypothesis is:

Quote:I'm not asking anyone to disprove God, just provide evidence and make your case between these two competing hypothesis.

At the core of the debate is two competing hypothesis

1. That the universe and life was intentionally caused, engineered and designed by a Creator
2. That mindless forces without plan or intent fortuitously caused the universe and life to exist.


So yeah, time to take YOU seriously, Drew! Laugh out load

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 05:42 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 08:46 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 04:59 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  1. The fact the universe exists

The existence of something doesn't attest to the cause of that thing.

Quote: If there was no universe, no life, no laws of physics, stars, planets or galaxies the claim there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true.

There would be no claim but if there is a god that exists "outside" our universe then the lack of a universe would not be evidence against that. We just would not be to make or evaluate such a claim.

Quote:After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces.

Who are "we"? Order arises naturally from chaotic systems. You might expect utter chaos but that doesn't mean others would.

Quote:What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved.

Only if you could show that those rules were, in fact, imposed. Even then, you would not likely be able to infer very much regarding the attributes of the supposed "engineer".

Quote:The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose?

Not until you get to the point where we have reason to believe there is an intelligent designer and make a claim the belies the need for the full universe. It comes up now because Christians often claim that the universe was designed specifically for man which immediately forces the question of what the purpose of the rest of it is. If you are just proposing a universe designer then the question is far less likely to come up.

Quote:Nevertheless lawyers will submit a corpse as evidence a murder has occurred to lay a foundation.

No, they will submit evidence that a murder has been committed based on the condition of the body or other relevant factors. A dead body is evidence of a death, not a murder. A universe is evidence of a universe, nt an intelligent designer.

Quote:Atheism doesn't require the existence of a universe to believe atheism is true.

If there were no universe there would be no concept of atheism or theism so this seems pretty irrelevant. We agree that there is a universe but, as has been said, that fact alone doesn't say anything either way about a designer. If no universe existed then it could be that there is no god or that it just hasn't created one yet. An existent universe could have been created intentionally or could be the result of mindless forces since we know that apparent order can arise from chaotic systems. The universe's existence, in and of itself, does not therefore support either theism or atheism.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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