Why I'm a Theist
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27-07-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 03:43 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  1. Its a fact natural forces exist
2. As we explore phenomena, particularly phenomena previously attributed to gods or Gods we discover 'naturalistic causes'
3. We have yet to discover a non-naturalistic cause for any phenomena within the universe
The argument from those facts is that its natural causes all the way down.

I would restate the conclusion as "it is reasonable to expect that we will continue to find natural causes".

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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27-07-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 02:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  I see. Atheists are always hostile when their beliefs are challenged. (What beliefs? No one challenges my beliefs, as I don't really have any, I have some assumptions though.)

I think your position is perhaps a bit common, but why is it that you prefer seeing yourself as a "person who lacks beliefs"? Many atheists do hold beliefs, in regards to a worldview, like ontological naturalism, physicalism, moral nihilism, etc... To say you lack a belief, seems to suggest that you don't really side with any of these particular positions?

For me it appears as some limbo like state, neither convinced of theism, or the various worldviews often expressed by other atheists.

I'm sure this works for you, but I can't say that I particularly understand why.

The statement "Atheists are always hostile when their beliefs are challenged" says absolutely nothing about atheists that isn't true of any other group. If you replace the word "Atheists" with "People" the sentence is equally true (although I would also substitute "usually" or "often" for "always").

The same reasoning applies to just about any broad statement about atheists. The only thing we have in common is not accepting the claim that God exists. It's a bit silly to paint all atheists with any brush broader than that.
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27-07-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 03:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  I suppose "belief" to me implies some unwavering quality, something intransigent. Perhaps one could have applied the word to me when I was younger, a teen (I knew everything then Smile ), a young adult, even up to middle age perhaps.

I thought that the long campaign to distinguish agnostic from gnostic did away with belief, as an "unwavering quality". It's "knowing" that's unwavering, while "belief" is it's less confident sibling.

Quote:Now, that I am older, I think everything is subject to change. I much prefer the word "assume". It leaves room for change. I have certainly changed my views of many things over the years. I may side with one or another view now, that does not mean I won't learn something tomorrow that changes my position.

What's always been curious to me is that your typical atheists seems to lack the sort of confidence of popular atheists, particularly the better known atheists scientists and philosophers. They lack the sort of confidence in ontological naturalism and such, displayed by those who gathered for the Moving Naturalism Forward workshop. I guess it can't really push forward, when your common atheists is not all that confident about naturalism themselves.
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27-07-2015, 06:26 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 03:43 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  1. Its a fact natural forces exist
2. As we explore phenomena, particularly phenomena previously attributed to gods or Gods we discover 'naturalistic causes'
3. We have yet to discover a non-naturalistic cause for any phenomena within the universe
The argument from those facts is that its natural causes all the way down.

It's turtles all the way down the lne.




#sigh
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27-07-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 06:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess it can't really push forward, when your common atheists is not all that confident about naturalism themselves.

What makes you say that? What is the alternative for your "common atheist"?

#sigh
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27-07-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 06:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What makes you say that? What is the alternative for your "common atheist"?

I was speaking of the sort of esprit de corps of those like Dom, who see themselves as not holding beliefs, only holding some assumptions, with no real commitment to one view or the other, but merely what amounts to a flirtation with one view or the other.

The alternative to that would be the sort of confident atheisms of folks like Jerry Coyne, Alex Rosenberg, Daniel Dennett, etc., that doesn't see itself as merely lacking a belief, but holding an alternative worldview that negates theism, in all it's forms.
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27-07-2015, 07:53 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Reality negates theism in all its forms.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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27-07-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 06:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess it can't really push forward, when your common atheists is not all that confident about naturalism themselves.

I really wish theist idiots would stop with the "naturalism" already. Whatever there is, is "natural". That would include your stupid set of gods, *if* they happened to exist. Their existence would be perfectly ''natural". It's a fake dichotomy. Are they "unnatural" ?

Quote:I was speaking of the sort of esprit de corps of those like Dom, who see themselves as not holding beliefs, only holding some assumptions, with no real commitment to one view or the other, but merely what amounts to a flirtation with one view or the other.

The alternative to that would be the sort of confident atheisms of folks like Jerry Coyne, Alex Rosenberg, Daniel Dennett, etc., that doesn't see itself as merely lacking a belief, but holding an alternative worldview that negates theism, in all it's forms.

What the fuck WOULD we do, without a daily dose of theists defining our world for us ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-07-2015, 09:06 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 09:10 PM by Dom.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(27-07-2015 06:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 03:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  I suppose "belief" to me implies some unwavering quality, something intransigent. Perhaps one could have applied the word to me when I was younger, a teen (I knew everything then Smile ), a young adult, even up to middle age perhaps.

I thought that the long campaign to distinguish agnostic from gnostic did away with belief, as an "unwavering quality". It's "knowing" that's unwavering, while "belief" is it's less confident sibling.

Quote:Now, that I am older, I think everything is subject to change. I much prefer the word "assume". It leaves room for change. I have certainly changed my views of many things over the years. I may side with one or another view now, that does not mean I won't learn something tomorrow that changes my position.

What's always been curious to me is that your typical atheists seems to lack the sort of confidence of popular atheists, particularly the better known atheists scientists and philosophers. They lack the sort of confidence in ontological naturalism and such, displayed by those who gathered for the Moving Naturalism Forward workshop. I guess it can't really push forward, when your common atheists is not all that confident about naturalism themselves.

You still don't get it. You are studying atheists, and you try to cram them into a box you can label nicely. You are going to find that you will need many boxes, because some of us may have some things in common, but mostly we are different. Did you read the conversion thread? You will find out a lot if you do. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...sion-story


And my atheism is not at all a flirtation. I stopped believing when I was 10 and read the bible - for the first and last time. I am now in my 60s. I am not into science much except that I enjoy it's benefits and support the principles. I went through my working life as entrepreneur/business woman. I have a lot of experience in public speaking and probably could become a "popular atheist". I am not interested in it at this point of my life. My main interest is animals and plants - interacting with animals and plants. It's fascinating to me.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-07-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
What some of the theists don't seem to understand is that there isn't one neat little bow they can put on all the atheists. We are basically united by one thing and one thing only - the lack of belief in a god or gods. Trying to define us is akin to herding cats. I guess the lockstep of religion makes it hard to understand individuality.

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