Why I'm a Theist
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06-08-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 01:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Materialism:
PHILOSOPHY
the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

"materialism"
Yet another theist-woo buzzword .
No one says "nothing exists" except matter. Certainly no scientist does. Most of this universe is energy, and most of that is at present unknown (Dark Energy and Dark Matter). More knee-jerk dishonest attempts to mischaracterize the positions and ideas of non-believers.

There is not a shred of evidence for the ancient Greek concept of Dualism that Aristotle espoused.

Get over it. Too bad.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-08-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
It doesn't seem like people are willing to give you much benefit of the doubt Tomasia. It's almost as if your inherent bias and your dishonesty about why you are on an atheist forum is shining through like a supernova in the night sky. Consider

Also, a supernova is basically what happens when a large star collapses in on itself and then explodes. Figured I'd better explain that or you'd be confused. Thumbsup

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06-08-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 01:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 01:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence of intentionality, therefore to assume it is a logical error.

There's no evidence of unintentionally, therefore to assume it is a logical error.

We do not claim unintentionally. We say, "we don't know."

However, you are claiming intentionally, therefore it is with reasonable expectation that you provide some evidence to support that claim.

Quote:You're confirmation bias entails a belief that certain rules apply to appealing to intentionality, that don't apply to appeal to unintentionally.

He has demonstrated no confirmation bias or beliefs of any kind. He has made no positive claim at all.

We need some intellectual honesty here ...

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-08-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 01:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 11:30 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  A lot of this strikes me as semantic hairsplitting. I am basically a materialist. Physics claims that matter/energy is conserved, and I see no reason not to believe that. So I believe that matter/energy in some form has always existed. Whether or not that requires a "cause", I simply don't know.

I don't think it's a matter of semantic hairsplitting.

Materialism:
PHILOSOPHY
the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

Would you say you basically are a materialist in the philosophical sense here?

Well, as Bucky Ball pointed out, there is also energy, but I think that's nitpicking. Given the equivalence of mass and energy, I would agree that, as far as we know, matter/energy is all there is. But as I've pointed out several times, I am not making that claim dogmatically. I am willing to change my mind as soon as someone shows me some evidence of the existence of something beyond matter/energy.

This is the simple, but important difference between Rosenberg and me. He claims to be certain of the materialist position. I make no such claim. For all practical purposes, I'm on his side, but I think he draws conclusions that we don't know enough to draw.

Quote:
Quote:But I reiterate that I don't claim to "know" any of this. This is how reality appears to me, and as far as I can see, the available evidence supports my perception of reality. But I could be wrong. So could Aristotle and Aquinas. They were really really smart, but they were human. We're all fallible (even the Pope).

Well, I think the term "know" has acquired very strong connotations, hence why there seems to be a distinction made between gnostic and agnostic, centering around the difference between knowing and believing. Such as when you say you're basically a materialist. While this might not mean that you "know" that materialism is true, it does seem to imply that you believe it is true. And not merely just "entertaining the possibility of it".

I have been using the word "know" in its absolute sense, and in that sense, I claim that we can know very little if anything. I don't know that I wasn't adopted (and my "parents" just never informed me of this). I don't know that I'm not a brain in a vat. I don't know that God doesn't exist.

However, I think it makes sense to believe things for which we have reasonable evidence. The evidence supports materialism. So for all practical purposes, I'm a materialist. But don't try to pin me into making absolute statements a la Rosenberg. I don't know enough to make such statements. And, in my opinion, neither does he.
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06-08-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 02:05 PM)Free Wrote:  We do not claim unintentionally. We say, "we don't know."

Whose "we"? If Chad wants to claim that he doesn't know, or believe that we're the product of unintentional, non-delebertate forces, he's more than welcome to clarify that.

I'm only interested in beliefs, not those things folks lack a belief in.

Quote:However, you are claiming intentionally, therefore it is with reasonable expectation that you provide some evidence to support that claim.

It can only be a reasonable expectation if you imagine that I'm trying to convince you of this, which is nothing but a fools errand. My interest is only in what others folks believe. They don't need to convince me to believe the same thing, that part I'm more comfortable working out on my own, and there are plenty of better sources for that, like the variety of works written by atheists philosophers, and scientist.
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06-08-2015, 02:55 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 02:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 02:05 PM)Free Wrote:  We do not claim unintentionally. We say, "we don't know."

Whose "we"? If Chad wants to claim that he doesn't know, or believe that we're the product of unintentional, non-delebertate forces, he's more than welcome to clarify that.

I'm only interested in beliefs, not those things folks lack a belief in.

Quote:However, you are claiming intentionally, therefore it is with reasonable expectation that you provide some evidence to support that claim.

It can only be a reasonable expectation if you imagine that I'm trying to convince you of this, which is nothing but a fools errand. My interest is only in what others folks believe. They don't need to convince me to believe the same thing, that part I'm more comfortable working out on my own, and there are plenty of better sources for that, like the variety of works written by atheists philosophers, and scientist.

"My interest is only in what others folks believe."

Bullshit.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-08-2015, 03:00 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 02:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Whose "we"? If Chad wants to claim that he doesn't know, or believe that we're the product of unintentional, non-delebertate forces, he's more than welcome to clarify that.

I don't know about Chad, but I was quite clear that I make no assumption of intentionality because there is no evidence of intentionality.
That is not the same as assuming unintentionality. You don't seem to get that.

Quote:I'm only interested in beliefs, not those things folks lack a belief in.

Quote:However, you are claiming intentionally, therefore it is with reasonable expectation that you provide some evidence to support that claim.

It can only be a reasonable expectation if you imagine that I'm trying to convince you of this, which is nothing but a fools errand. My interest is only in what others folks believe. They don't need to convince me to believe the same thing, that part I'm more comfortable working out on my own, and there are plenty of better sources for that, like the variety of works written by atheists philosophers, and scientist.

If you are not interested in providing any evidence or argument, then what are you arguing about? Why should your unsupported claim not simply be dismissed? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-08-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 03:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't know about Chad, but I was quite clear that I make no assumption of intentionality because there is no evidence of intentionality.
That is not the same as assuming unintentionality. You don't seem to get that.

You're not being entirely clear. Do you agree with Free:

"We do not claim unintentionally. We say, "we don't know."

Do you believe that we're the product of unintentional, non-deliberate forces? Or would you say you lack a belief here, that you "don't know", as Free seems to imply?
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06-08-2015, 04:23 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 03:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 03:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't know about Chad, but I was quite clear that I make no assumption of intentionality because there is no evidence of intentionality.
That is not the same as assuming unintentionality. You don't seem to get that.

You're not being entirely clear. Do you agree with Free:

"We do not claim unintentionally. We say, "we don't know."

Do you believe that we're the product of unintentional, non-deliberate forces? Or would you say you lack a belief here, that you "don't know", as Free seems to imply?

Holy fuck. Do you try to understand what is written? You're still fucking using language that implies the possibility of intent or deliberate actions.

You can't be this stupid. Can you? Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-08-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(06-08-2015 02:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 02:05 PM)Free Wrote:  We do not claim unintentionally. We say, "we don't know."

Whose "we"? If Chad wants to claim that he doesn't know, or believe that we're the product of unintentional, non-delebertate forces, he's more than welcome to clarify that.

I'm only interested in beliefs, not those things folks lack a belief in.

Well in regards to "believe" and " "don't believe," what part of the 3rd option of "I don't know" are you failing to understand?

Can you not understand that people are not required to believe or disbelieve, and that they can in fact choose "I don't know?"

The fallacy you are committing here is known as the False Dilemma Fallacy

Chas is by no means obligated to accept either of your choices, and may indeed choose "I don't know."

Quote:
Quote:However, you are claiming intentionally, therefore it is with reasonable expectation that you provide some evidence to support that claim.

It can only be a reasonable expectation if you imagine that I'm trying to convince you of this, which is nothing but a fools errand. My interest is only in what others folks believe. They don't need to convince me to believe the same thing, that part I'm more comfortable working out on my own, and there are plenty of better sources for that, like the variety of works written by atheists philosophers, and scientist.

And like we keep telling you, you are using a False Dilemma to propagate this position. People are indeed quite entitled to consider all other options other than belief or disbelief.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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