Why I'm a Theist
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23-07-2015, 06:22 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 06:15 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  And, as one of the posters over there told him, twice:

"You are literally too stupid to insult."

bwahhahaahhaa ... I'm stealing it.

#sigh
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23-07-2015, 06:32 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:40 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 05:34 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Hi DREW! I see you were banned from atheistforums.com

I bet I can predict your point #3, because I'm MAGIC:


Did I get it?

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5404.90

I would be proud of being banned from that forum but all I did to warrant being banned was to make my case for theism. That's how that forum squelches dissent.

I plan to make the same case here...if its tolerated. We mustn't let freethinkers think too freely...

Who are 'we', got a frog in your pocket?

And what's wrong with thinking too freely - if such a thing exists?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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23-07-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Oh fuck not another one who is going to try to explain to us what atheists all think. Facepalm

If I had a dime for each of these fuckers with stupendous idea that just came to them as they showered, gently washing their genitals while trying not to become aroused....

Dodgy

Your well thought out idea isn't new.

Atheism is ONLY A DISBLIEF IN A DEITY(s).

It makes no claims about origins of the universe or any other crap these jokers can vomit out their ass.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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23-07-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
With the number of theists showing up lately it seems like it may be time to put a guard at the gate.

The forum is more theist than atheist lately. It's getting old.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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23-07-2015, 06:53 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 06:51 PM)Anjele Wrote:  With the number of theists showing up lately it seems like it may be time to put a guard at the gate.

The forum is more theist than atheist lately. It's getting old.

I volunteer as tribute!

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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23-07-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Unfogged...

After all a utterly chaotic universe is exactly what we would expect from something caused by mindless forces.

Quote:Who are "we"? Order arises naturally from chaotic systems. You might expect utter chaos but that doesn't mean others would.

We are the regular folks who observe on nearly a daily basis that mindless forces except when corralled by the laws of physics are chaotic. We as intelligent humans expend a great deal of energy creating order out of chaos. What order there is arises only because of the laws of physics.

What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved.

Quote:Only if you could show that those rules were, in fact, imposed. Even then, you would not likely be able to infer very much regarding the attributes of the supposed "engineer".

I agree imposed was a poor choice. Let me rephrase...


What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved.


I'm not attempting to infer much about the character or nature of the Creator, that's for theologians to argue and I'm no theologian.

The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose?

Quote:Not until you get to the point where we have reason to believe there is an intelligent designer and make a claim the belies the need for the full universe. It comes up now because Christians often claim that the universe was designed specifically for man which immediately forces the question of what the purpose of the rest of it is. If you are just proposing a universe designer then the question is far less likely to come up.

Again I'm not making a religious or Christian argument. The Creator in this instance could be a scientist from another universe for the purpose of this discussion.

Full Definition of THEISM
: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Atheism is defined by theism the only part you get is the A which means not or without.

Quote:No, they will submit evidence that a murder has been committed based on the condition of the body or other relevant factors. A dead body is evidence of a death, not a murder. A universe is evidence of a universe, nt an intelligent designer.

They will get to all that but they will start by showing a death has occurred. What chance of conviction will they have if they can't demonstrate a death has even occurred? A corpse is but the first line of evidence but show me a murder in which no one has died?

Quote:If there were no universe there would be no concept of atheism or theism so this seems pretty irrelevant. We agree that there is a universe but, as has been said, that fact alone doesn't say anything either way about a designer. If no universe existed then it could be that there is no god or that it just hasn't created one yet. An existant universe could have been created intentionally or could be the result of mindless forces since we know that apparent order can arise from chaotic systems. The universe's existence. in and of itself, does not therefore support either theism or atheism.

I thought I made it clear if we could hypothetically have a conversation, think of it like a thought experiment. If there was no universe there wouldn't be less reason to posit it was caused by a creator there would be no reason. Just as in a murder case if there is no decedent or evidence of a decedent the inquiry as to whether the death was caused intentionally or naturally never comes up.

Look here is the irony there are no conditions, events or phenomena that needs to occur for atheism to be true or to at least have some merit. In order for theism to have any merit at all certain conditions (such as the existence of sentient beings and a place that supports there existence) have to obtain. Why would mindless forces without plan or intent cause the conditions necessary for theism to be true?
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23-07-2015, 07:18 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 06:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  We are the regular folks who observe on nearly a daily basis that mindless forces except when corralled by the laws of physics are chaotic. We as intelligent humans expend a great deal of energy creating order out of chaos. What order there is arises only because of the laws of physics.

1. Except it's already been pointed out to you that chaos Theory demonstrates order arises spontaneously in this universe.
2. What you observe on a macro level is but a tiny slice of Reality, which, it has been proven, is non-intuitive to human brains. That leaves ONLY evidence. you have none.

(23-07-2015 06:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved.

No you wouldn't. Order arises spontaneously, and even if it didn't your irrational jump to "god done" it does not follow in any way. It's just a bad habit theists have, because they lack creativity.

(23-07-2015 06:55 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I'm not attempting to infer much about the character or nature of the Creator, that's for theologians to argue and I'm no theologian.

You're not much of a critical thinker either. Gods can't have "characters" or they are incoherent for the same reason given above.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-07-2015, 07:19 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
You tried to imply that banning a person because they won't abide by the basic rules of logical argumentation, when they're clearly just around to level tired old arguments in a spammy manner, is censorship.

Quote: We mustn't let freethinkers think too freely...

Wasn't that how you put it? You're either dishonest, prejudiced beyond possibility of recovery, or hallucinating if you think that squashing dissenting views is how atheists operate. Or you know that's not how we operate, and were just taking a swipe at us, after coming to our home turf, in which case you're just a dick.

You're so-called "thought" experiment is based on a huge number of presumptions that not only can't be proved, they don't even follow logically. Simply because you assert something is true doesn't make it true, even in a special pleading (SP = "well, everything we observe operates by physics, but if we imagine we can go OUTSIDE the universe, maybe it's different, then") followed by a false causality (FC = "therefore Designer"). It's not even good philosophy, let alone a rational argument about science and the natural world in which we live.

So before you try the same "hey I'm just trying to be reasonable here" emotional manipulation you tried to pull in the other forum, and which they rightly called you on, make sure you've got your game straight, because we do.

And we will call you on every piece of bullshit you try to pull.

Don't take it personally, we do it to each other; it's one of the basic, fundamental principles of skeptical inquiry. If I make an argument, any argument, that does not follow, half the posters here will call non-sequitur. They did it to me yesterday. The difference is that I recognized the error and corrected my position based upon the new information, something I have never seen a theist do. I don't know if it's a basic principle of the Believing Mind's reprogramming that prevents this, or if we are just fortunate enough to inherit basically-dishonest people who seek to "debate" us but don't know how (or refuse) to debate properly.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 05:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 05:23 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  2. The fact life exists

Like your first point, life existing is evidence only for life existing and not why or what caused it. Experiments show that simple chemicals tend to form compounds key to life. They have been detected in meteorites and in space so it appears that the very basic building blocks of life are relatively common and easy to create. That, plus time, makes it seem that there is no huge obstacle to the formation of simple self-replicating molecules and with that evolution can kick in.

We may not have identified all the pieces, but there doesn't appear to be any major obstacle to life forming without any intelligent designer unless you deny the age of the universe.

Neither of your first two points are evidence FOR a god nor are they evidence against one. That's the problem with a claim that magic exists... if you grant that it does then everything can be explained that way whether there is a natural explanation or not.

I'll repeat again, I don't care if you or any of my opponents concur with what I submit is in your opinion evidence for or against. Its not up to advocates of a position to decide the merits of a counter position. It goes without saying as an advocate of atheism you will disagree and dispute anything I say. In my opinion of course these first two lines of evidence weigh heavily in favor of my belief...so there! You're not surprised at my opinion are you? I'm not surprised at yours. Can we possibly dispense with the silly notion that I need to convince you of my claim in order for it to have any merit? I'll let the merits of my arguments rest with any undecided lurkers that may be present not my opponents.

Quote: That's the problem with a claim that magic exists... if you grant that it does then everything can be explained that way whether there is a natural explanation or not.

I'm looking forward to your naturalistic explanation of how natural forces caused itself to exist.

Some perspective on abiogenesis. Lets grant for a moment that chemical processes may account for it occurring. A myriad of other conditions have to obtain before that is possible. Its an assumption among atheists for sure but scientists also (most of whom are atheists) that life must be relatively simple to occur. After all it didn't occur intentionally so it must be relatively simple. Yet highly motivated scientists (using intelligence) have been unable to duplicate the conditions alleged to have arisen by a chance process. We can't even make it happen by intentionally trying to make it happen.

Explain to me how it is more magical for an intelligent designer to create something highly complex (like a universe) then it is for mindless forces without intent or desire to do the same thing? We are used to scientists and engineers doing incredible things that 200 years ago would be acts of pure magic...true?
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23-07-2015, 07:43 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 07:28 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 05:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Like your first point, life existing is evidence only for life existing and not why or what caused it. Experiments show that simple chemicals tend to form compounds key to life. They have been detected in meteorites and in space so it appears that the very basic building blocks of life are relatively common and easy to create. That, plus time, makes it seem that there is no huge obstacle to the formation of simple self-replicating molecules and with that evolution can kick in.

We may not have identified all the pieces, but there doesn't appear to be any major obstacle to life forming without any intelligent designer unless you deny the age of the universe.

Neither of your first two points are evidence FOR a god nor are they evidence against one. That's the problem with a claim that magic exists... if you grant that it does then everything can be explained that way whether there is a natural explanation or not.

I'll repeat again, I don't care if you or any of my opponents concur with what I submit is in your opinion evidence for or against. Its not up to advocates of a position to decide the merits of a counter position. It goes without saying as an advocate of atheism you will disagree and dispute anything I say. In my opinion of course these first two lines of evidence weigh heavily in favor of my belief...so there! You're not surprised at my opinion are you? I'm not surprised at yours. Can we possibly dispense with the silly notion that I need to convince you of my claim in order for it to have any merit? I'll let the merits of my arguments rest with any undecided lurkers that may be present not my opponents.

Quote: That's the problem with a claim that magic exists... if you grant that it does then everything can be explained that way whether there is a natural explanation or not.

I'm looking forward to your naturalistic explanation of how natural forces caused itself to exist.

Some perspective on abiogenesis. Lets grant for a moment that chemical processes may account for it occurring. A myriad of other conditions have to obtain before that is possible. Its an assumption among atheists for sure but scientists also (most of whom are atheists) that life must be relatively simple to occur. After all it didn't occur intentionally so it must be relatively simple. Yet highly motivated scientists (using intelligence) have been unable to duplicate the conditions alleged to have arisen by a chance process. We can't even make it happen by intentionally trying to make it happen.

Explain to me how it is more magical for an intelligent designer to create something highly complex (like a universe) then it is for mindless forces without intent or desire to do the same thing? We are used to scientists and engineers doing incredible things that 200 years ago would be acts of pure magic...true?

You're a dumb fuck.

If you don't care, then why the hell are you here?

Fuck off you moron. Or troll. Or generic theist Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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