Why I'm a Theist
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 2 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-08-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 12:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 12:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The default position is unintentionality, to move from the default position requires a reason. When Newton saw an apple fall he didn't look up and think "I wonder who dropped that apple?"

The default position is I don't know. Moving to unintentionality requires a reason, just like moving to intentionality does.

No, it does not. What do you think "unintentionality" is? It is the absence of intentionality.

Without evidence of intentionality, we don't assume it. Just like without evidence of pixies, we don't assume quantum pixiedynamics.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
08-08-2015, 01:15 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 12:42 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but jumping to a conclusion without evidence is IMO foolish, whether it's the conclusion of intentionality or unintentionality.

Admit what you don't know. Don't be scared of not knowing. There will always be a gap of human knowledge, IMO we should get over this fact.

This doesn't mean we can't guess and speculate. If I had to bet, I would bet towards unintentionality, but I can't honestly claim knowledge of unintentionality.

Don't make the same mistake that Tomasia is making. "Unintentionality" is not the claim nor the position. In fact, unintentionality is just the absence of intentionality.

Without evidence of intentionality, there is no reason to seriously consider it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
08-08-2015, 01:16 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:05 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  This doesn't seem right to me. Let's look at the temperature of absolute zero. Isn't it possible that we don't know whether or not it is possible for matter to achieve this temperature?

Might want to find a better example. A temperature below absolute zero.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:05 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 12:48 PM)Free Wrote:  No, again, let me take you back to the final thing I said in the post:

We do not, however, make the positive claim that unintentionally is 100% conclusive and factual, but rather only that the evidence indicates it to be more likely than intentionally since we only have two choices, and "intentionally" has been eliminated. Therefore with only 2 choices, then by the process of elimination "unintentionally" becomes the default position.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid827764

Wow, you just went from "seems less likely" to "eliminated" in the same sentence.

Are you certain you read that correctly?

Where did I say "seems less likely?"

Consider

Quote:
(08-08-2015 12:48 PM)Free Wrote:  For something to qualify it as being possible, some evidence to support such a possibility must be presented. To claim something as being possible carries the exact same burden of proof as claiming that something exists. It is a positive claim that requires evidence for support.

Hence, there is no evidence to support the possibility that intentionality is the truth.

This doesn't seem right to me. Let's look at the temperature of absolute zero. Isn't it possible that we don't know whether or not it is possible for matter to achieve this temperature? Something can be possible whether or not we know it, or have even pondered it.

To demonstrate the possibility, evidence must be supplied. This is true in all things.

In our lexicon we tend to say "anything is possible," but it it really possible? To qualify it as being possible, we must demonstrate it with evidence, otherwise the intellectually honest position to take is that it is not possible.

Quote:However, I would agree that it is unreasonable to claim either possibility or impossibility without evidence, but again, certain phenomena are either possible or not, regardless of what any human thinks.....i.e. we don't need to know that it's possible for it to be possible (same with impossible).

The burden of proof is always upon those who make the positive claim of existence, or the possibility of existence.

Until the positive claim has been qualified with evidence, then it is perfectly reasonable to stand upon the position that the existence and possible existence of something has not been proven, and therefore should rightfully be considered false.

Understand, if something does not exist, it is impossible by the very definition of the word.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:08 PM)Free Wrote:  It is so very simple, isn't it?

Let's say you live in a small bachelor apartment, with only a bathroom and one larger room. You used your cell phone 10 minutes ago, but forget where you set it down. You haven't left the apartment, and no one else lives there or entered the apartment that day, so you know that the cell-phone is somewhere in the apartment.

If you are looking for the phone, and you look in the bathroom and see nothing but a totally empty bathroom, then it's rather obvious that what you are looking for must be someplace else other than in that bathroom.

The bathroom has been eliminated.

Where is the phone?

Consider

If you thoroughly looked through the bathroom, around every nook and corner of it. Noting that all the cabinets and drawers were empty, etc... than the phone would be somewhere other than in the bathroom. You have a positive claim here as well, that the bathroom is empty, supported by a variety of different pieces of evidence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 01:08 PM)Free Wrote:  It is so very simple, isn't it?

Let's say you live in a small bachelor apartment, with only a bathroom and one larger room. You used your cell phone 10 minutes ago, but forget where you set it down. You haven't left the apartment, and no one else lives there or entered the apartment that day, so you know that the cell-phone is somewhere in the apartment.

If you are looking for the phone, and you look in the bathroom and see nothing but a totally empty bathroom, then it's rather obvious that what you are looking for must be someplace else other than in that bathroom.

The bathroom has been eliminated.

Where is the phone?

Consider

If you thoroughly looked through the bathroom, around every nook and corner of it. Noting that all the cabinets and drawers were empty, etc... than the phone would be somewhere other than in the bathroom. You have a positive claim here as well, that the bathroom is empty, supported by a variety of different pieces of evidence.

We are looking for the truth.

The bathroom is "intentionality," and no shred of truth was found there. We have effectively eliminated the bathroom. The only other room is called "unintentionality."

Where is the truth?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Free's post
08-08-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 01:05 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  This doesn't seem right to me. Let's look at the temperature of absolute zero. Isn't it possible that we don't know whether or not it is possible for matter to achieve this temperature?

Might want to find a better example. A temperature below absolute zero.

Why? The example I used is perfect.

Are you not able to use your imagination and go back a few years when absolute zero was largely thought to be impossible? The point is, it's either possible or not, whether or not we know it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:30 PM)Free Wrote:  The bathroom is "intentionality," and no shred of truth was found there. We have effectively eliminated the bathroom. The only other room is called "unintentionality."

Where is the truth?

And what do we do if we don't find it in the "unintentionality" room either? Surely we can't admit that we're just not certain .....Drinking Beverage
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2015, 01:59 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 02:04 PM by Free.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:52 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 01:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Might want to find a better example. A temperature below absolute zero.

Why? The example I used is perfect.

Are you not able to use your imagination and go back a few years when absolute zero was largely thought to be impossible? The point is, it's either possible or not, whether or not we know it.

Not true.

That which is deemed possible or impossible is always deemed as such according to the current state of time and knowledge.

We can say today that something is impossible, and it will be true. It will be true regardless of what tomorrow brings.

We cannot foretell the future in regards to what is possible or not possible. We must evaluate things each day according to the current state of our knowledge.

Today, intentionality is not possible. We cannot speak to tomorrow, or any other future date. In regards to the future, the intellectually honest position is "we don't know."

But what do we know today? Today we know that intentionality and its possibility have been demonstrated as having no truth to it by virtue of a lack of evidence.

That's the real-time reality.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(08-08-2015 01:55 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 01:30 PM)Free Wrote:  The bathroom is "intentionality," and no shred of truth was found there. We have effectively eliminated the bathroom. The only other room is called "unintentionality."

Where is the truth?

And what do we do if we don't find it in the "unintentionality" room either? Surely we can't admit that we're just not certain .....Drinking Beverage

Again ...

IF there are only 2 options, and 1 has been eliminated ...

Where is the truth?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: