Why I'm a Theist
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 1.5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-08-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Free,

I think you're confusing existence with knowledge of existence.

We don't need to have knowledge of a thing's existence in order for it to exist. The universe will continue to exist even after all humans cease to exist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 01:38 PM
Closing argument
Closing Argument

The theism atheism debate is about two propositions; we owe the existence of the universe and sentient life to natural forces that didn’t intend to cause a universe or life to exist or we owe our existence to a Creator that intentionally caused the universe and life to exist. Either claim is extraordinary but the existence of the universe and sentient life is an extraordinary event. I cited 5 facts (also known as evidence) in support of my opinion and I will add a 6th.

1. The fact the universe exists
2. The fact life exists
3. The fact sentient life exists
4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.
5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.
6. The fact that sentient beings (humans) create virtual universes.

The last line of evidence provides a working model of theism. Granted we’re not capable of creating real universes but the existence of virtual universes is traceable back to sentient creators who can create and design any type of universe they want with whatever laws of physics they want. It demonstrates this is something sentient beings are inclined to do. If we were capable of populating virtual universes with virtual sentient beings they would undoubtedly wonder how their existence and the universe came to be and whether it was ‘natural forces’ all the way down or if there was an intelligence behind it all. All the arguments atheists make now would be just as valid in such a virtual universe but they’d all be wrong.

I have commented at length about atheism as a lack of belief (but not the disbelief) in the existence of God position and unwillingness to defend naturalism. As a result atheism becomes nothing more than a criticism of theism while admitting they have no competing model or better explanation of how mindless forces could have accomplished what we observe. It amounts to little more than saying ‘we don’t know how or if the universe came about by natural means but we’re skeptical of any theistic means’. That position is fine when having a debate on an atheist board I don’t think it will lose any atheists but before a group of impartial folks judging the merits of our respective arguments it’s a non-starter. I don’t evaluate the theist-atheist debate from a lack of belief standpoint I evaluate it from whether what we observe is best explained as the product of intellect or by product of natural forces and pure happenstance. Obviously I hold at this time the theistic theory has more merit. Some important discoveries could be made in my life time that would cause me to re-consider. No one here has mounted much of a defense of atheism because most here want to define it as a lack of belief.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2015 01:52 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 01:38 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Obviously I hold at this time the theistic theory has more merit.

Why theism? I can make similar arguments for pantheism and panentheism. Why should there be a single God?

(09-08-2015 01:38 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Granted we’re not capable of creating real universes but the existence of virtual universes is traceable back to sentient creators who can create and design any type of universe they want with whatever laws of physics they want.

Your use of the plural "creators" undermines your theistic position unless your theism allows multiple Gods.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
09-08-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 01:26 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Free,

I think you're confusing existence with knowledge of existence.

We don't need to have knowledge of a thing's existence in order for it to exist. The universe will continue to exist even after all humans cease to exist.

Uh-huh

Quote:You need to understand that we are human, and to us nothing exists until it is discovered as existing by humans.

I would find it very interesting to see anyone demonstrate existence with no human to observe it. You see, it's irrelevant what may or may not exist outside of the human experience, for without us, existence is meaningless.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 01:38 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Closing Argument

The theism atheism debate is about two propositions; we owe the existence of the universe and sentient life to natural forces that didn’t intend to cause a universe or life to exist or we owe our existence to a Creator that intentionally caused the universe and life to exist. Either claim is extraordinary but the existence of the universe and sentient life is an extraordinary event. I cited 5 facts (also known as evidence) in support of my opinion and I will add a 6th.

1. The fact the universe exists
2. The fact life exists
3. The fact sentient life exists
4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.
5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.
6. The fact that sentient beings (humans) create virtual universes.

The last line of evidence provides a working model of theism. Granted we’re not capable of creating real universes but the existence of virtual universes is traceable back to sentient creators who can create and design any type of universe they want with whatever laws of physics they want. It demonstrates this is something sentient beings are inclined to do. If we were capable of populating virtual universes with virtual sentient beings they would undoubtedly wonder how their existence and the universe came to be and whether it was ‘natural forces’ all the way down or if there was an intelligence behind it all. All the arguments atheists make now would be just as valid in such a virtual universe but they’d all be wrong.

I have commented at length about atheism as a lack of belief (but not the disbelief) in the existence of God position and unwillingness to defend naturalism. As a result atheism becomes nothing more than a criticism of theism while admitting they have no competing model or better explanation of how mindless forces could have accomplished what we observe. It amounts to little more than saying ‘we don’t know how or if the universe came about by natural means but we’re skeptical of any theistic means’. That position is fine when having a debate on an atheist board I don’t think it will lose any atheists but before a group of impartial folks judging the merits of our respective arguments it’s a non-starter. I don’t evaluate the theist-atheist debate from a lack of belief standpoint I evaluate it from whether what we observe is best explained as the product of intellect or by product of natural forces and pure happenstance. Obviously I hold at this time the theistic theory has more merit. Some important discoveries could be made in my life time that would cause me to re-consider. No one here has mounted much of a defense of atheism because most here want to define it as a lack of belief.

Would it be fair to say that you are agnostic about the existence of god, but if you had to guess, you would guess that god does exist? Or do you claim to be certain of god's existence?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 01:49 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 01:26 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Free,

I think you're confusing existence with knowledge of existence.

We don't need to have knowledge of a thing's existence in order for it to exist. The universe will continue to exist even after all humans cease to exist.

Uh-huh

Quote:You need to understand that we are human, and to us nothing exists until it is discovered as existing by humans.

I would find it very interesting to see anyone demonstrate existence with no human to observe it. You see, it's irrelevant what may or may not exist outside of the human experience, for without us, existence is meaningless.

Problem is, I don't care if things exist TO US, I only care about whether or not they exist in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were ...
Born This Way


Even a so called lack of belief of a claim is the result of a volitional intelligent decision (at least I would hope it is). Infants aren't capable of deciding which claims have merit and which don't. They don't disbelieve or lack belief in anything. I don't get how some think this is a good argument for atheism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes drewpaul's post
09-08-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 01:38 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I have commented at length about atheism as a lack of belief (but not the disbelief) in the existence of God position and unwillingness to defend naturalism. As a result atheism becomes nothing more than a criticism of theism while admitting they have no competing model or better explanation of how mindless forces could have accomplished what we observe.

Understand how we actually view your position:

God = Thor = Zeus = FSM = put-any-god-you-want-here.

Now demonstrate that even just one of any of the supernatural gods once thought to exist, actually ever existed.

If you can do that, then you have evidence to demonstrate the possibility that a creator is the origin of existence. If you can demonstrate just the possibility via evidence, I will wholeheartedly concede.

But that will not happen. No one in history has ever been able to demonstrate with evidence that any kind of supernatural god or creator even has any evidence at all to support the smallest possibility that they actually exist.

Hence, you have absolutely no evidence to warrant the possibility of any god/creator existing, yet you continue to assert without evidence that a god/creator exists.

Asserting that something exists when there is no evidence to support it is quite simply a fool's errand. Of the countless number of attempts to prove such a claim, it is unlike performing an experiment countless times, and always getting the same negative result.

You could do that same experiment 1 billion times, and always get the same negative result. So when will realize that the attempt is both frivolous and pointless?

What will it take before the truth finally dawns on you?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 02:09 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 01:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 01:38 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Obviously I hold at this time the theistic theory has more merit.

Why theism? I can make similar arguments for pantheism and panentheism. Why should there be a single God?

Those are forms of theism in my opinion, I don't know if there is a single God or not.

(09-08-2015 01:38 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Granted we’re not capable of creating real universes but the existence of virtual universes is traceable back to sentient creators who can create and design any type of universe they want with whatever laws of physics they want.

Your use of the plural "creators" undermines your theistic position unless your theism allows multiple Gods.

I used plural in regards to virtual universes which are typically a collaborative effort.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2015, 02:11 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 02:02 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were ...
Born This Way


Even a so called lack of belief of a claim is the result of a volitional intelligent decision (at least I would hope it is). Infants aren't capable of deciding which claims have merit and which don't. They don't disbelieve or lack belief in anything. I don't get how some think this is a good argument for atheism.

Of course they lack belief. They lack belief until they obtain it.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: