Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 07:42 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A claim that something was unintentional, was an accident, etc... is a positive claim. That's not claiming "nothing". If I claim that I shot my wife unintentionally, I am not claiming nothing.

And no one is making that claim. The claim is that there is no evidence of intentionality.

Unless I misunderstood, Free was making that claim.
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10-08-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:18 AM)Free Wrote:  And you appear to be assuming how other self-aware creatures may have the ability to view things from a perspective similar to the human experience. You have no evidence for this presumption. In effect, you are assuming a humanization of other self-aware creatures.

And that is human arrogance, and that is anthopocentric bullshit.

No, I am leaving the possibility open; it is you who is making a claim that is it only humans.

Arrogant, narrow, anthropocentric bullshit. Drinking Beverage

The claim is justified because you haven't demonstrated any evidence to support the possibility. You make an assumption that other self-ware creatures have some kind of human-like ability, and in that effect you humanize them.

The reason that is arrogant is that you believe that creatures that are not human should equate somehow to human beings, instead of respecting those self-aware creatures for their own non-human characteristics as non human.

We cannot make assumptions regarding how other self-aware creatures view things. We should never be so arrogant with our intelligence as to expect them to be anything like us at all.

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10-08-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(09-08-2015 08:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 02:02 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were ...
Born This Way


Even a so called lack of belief of a claim is the result of a volitional intelligent decision (at least I would hope it is). Infants aren't capable of deciding which claims have merit and which don't. They don't disbelieve or lack belief in anything. I don't get how some think this is a good argument for atheism.

I don't see why anyone misunderstands this. Consider

Infants don't have beliefs about capitalism, ballet, stellar evolution, an many other things. They lack those beliefs.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Facepalm

I think he actually has a point. The "born this way" argument has never seemed sensible to me either. If a baby is an atheist for that reason, so is a dog or a bacterium or a rock. The word is only meaningful in a context where you have enough intelligence and awareness to know what the alternatives are.

After all, a baby can't walk or talk or feed itself either. Are these considered natural default states for adult humans as well?
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10-08-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A claim that something was unintentional, was an accident, etc... is a positive claim. That's not claiming "nothing". If I claim that I shot my wife unintentionally, I am not claiming nothing.

And no one is making that claim. The claim is that there is no evidence of intentionality.

No, Free suggested that unintentionality should be accepted as a default position.

And you previously suggested it should be accepted as the "working hypothesis".If you want to retract that, and now merely just claim that there is no evidence for intentionality, than so be it.
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10-08-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:42 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  And no one is making that claim. The claim is that there is no evidence of intentionality.

Unless I misunderstood, Free was making that claim.

You misunderstood. In the context of this discussion, here is the situation:

The context of this discussion only leaves two choices; intentionality, or unintentionality.

If intentionality cannot be demonstrated as being true, and has no evidence whatsoever for support, the only reasonable thing to do is view unintentionality as being the default position.

It doesn't mean that unintentionality is the truth, for what it really means is this:

1. We know intentionality is not the truth.
2. We still don't know if unintentionality is the truth, but because intentionality has been eliminated, we must now take a serious look at unintentionality.
3. We are still not prepared to make a positive claim regarding unintentionality because we still haven't found hard evidence.

However, since intentionality has been eliminated, it is no different than having no choice but to view unintentionality as the more likely option, but nothing approaches conclusiveness in this respect.

It's really basic math. On a scale of 0 - 100:

Intentionality: 0
Unintentionality: 1

Unintentionality gets a +1 because it uses the Evidence of Absence principle (intentionality has been eliminated).

That's all it is.

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10-08-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 06:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no "problem".
Concerning the proposition in this thread, one of the two positions is a positive hypothesis with a claim, and various (false) assertions about both the claim and the (supposed) evidence supporting it.
The other position claims nothing. It dismisses the concept that the facts presented provide any support for the proposition.
The other is neutral

A claim that something was unintentional, was an accident, etc... is a positive claim. That's not claiming "nothing". If I claim that I shot my wife unintentionally, I am not claiming nothing.

The analogy is false. The universe is here. No one admits they put it here, either way. Your wife has a bullet hole in her, and you admit you did it. "Intentionality" is these two situations are entirely different concepts.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-08-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:57 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:42 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Unless I misunderstood, Free was making that claim.

You misunderstood. In the context of this discussion, here is the situation:

The context of this discussion only leaves two choices; intentionality, or unintentionality.

If intentionality cannot be demonstrated as being true, and has no evidence whatsoever for support, the only reasonable thing to do is view unintentionality as being the default position.

You have two competing choices, X and Y, which are the only two choices as well.

Both have no evidence in support of it.

According to you, since X has no evidence (even though Y has no evidence as well), the only reasonable thing to do is view Y as the default position.

Do you see the problem with this?
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10-08-2015, 08:12 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
If you put D next to H followed by -ggg and add it with a Dingbat, you get gibberish. Just like the above.

Personally I like the dingbat.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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10-08-2015, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 08:25 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A claim that something was unintentional, was an accident, etc... is a positive claim. That's not claiming "nothing". If I claim that I shot my wife unintentionally, I am not claiming nothing.

The analogy is false. The universe is here. No one admits they put it here, either way. Your wife has a bullet hole in her head, and you admit you did it. "Intentionality" is these two situations are entirely different concepts.

The universe is here would be analogous to the bullet in the head, in my example.

Intentionality is the same in both of these situations, at least in terms of the meaning of the word. Just like unintentional would be.

If I were to claim that the universe was a product of unintentional forces, the meaning of the word would be the same as implied in the bullet in the hole example.
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10-08-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The analogy is false. The universe is here. No one admits they put it here, either way. Your wife has a bullet hole in her head, and you admit you did it. "Intentionality" is these two situations are entirely different concepts.

The universe is here would be analogous to the bullet in the head, in my example.

Intentionality is the same in both of these situation, at least in terms of the meaning of the word. Just like unintentional would be.

If I were to claim that the universe was a product of unintentional forces, the meaning of the word would be the same as implied in the bullet in the hole example.


The examples are totally different.
1. We have all kinds of instances where we know that people can shoot others. That NEVER has/had occurred with universes.
2. No one claimed they made a universe.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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