Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
"Do infants have any belief at all?"


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I can't...I just can't. So much ignorance that it seems intentional at this point.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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10-08-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The examples are totally different.
1. We have all kinds of instances where we know that people can shoot others. That NEVER has/had occurred with universes.
2. No one claimed they made a universe.

Any problems you see with claims of intentionality, would just as easily apply to claims of unintionality.

Any attempt to raise the status of one over the other, requires a great deal of confirmation bias to support.
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10-08-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You have two competing choices, X and Y, which are the only two choices as well.

Both have no evidence in support of it.

According to you, since X has no evidence (even though Y has no evidence as well), the only reasonable thing to do is view Y as the default position.

Do you see the problem with this?

How is this not evidence of "non-causality"?




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 08:35 AM by Free.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:57 AM)Free Wrote:  You misunderstood. In the context of this discussion, here is the situation:

The context of this discussion only leaves two choices; intentionality, or unintentionality.

If intentionality cannot be demonstrated as being true, and has no evidence whatsoever for support, the only reasonable thing to do is view unintentionality as being the default position.

You have two competing choices, X and Y, which are the only two choices as well.

Both have no evidence in support of it.

According to you, since X has no evidence (even though Y has no evidence as well), the only reasonable thing to do is view Y as the default position.

Do you see the problem with this?

You don't seem to understand. It's not a matter of "no evidence." It's a matter of elimination.

If X has been eliminated, and Y has not, then Y becomes the default position.

We cannot eliminate Y based upon "no evidence" because Y does not have the same claim upon it as X does ie; God/Creator.

We are not looking for God in Y, because God has been eliminated.

Therefore, all we know is that the answer is not a God/Creator due to the fact that there is no evidence.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Probability that the universe is the result of intentional/conscious forces = 0 (determined through a paucity of evidence for intentional forces/causes)

The remaining possibility is therefore that the universe is the result of non-intentional and non-conscious forces, and the probability here is >0

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10-08-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Probability that the universe is the result of intentional/conscious forces = 0 (determined through a paucity of evidence for intentional forces/causes)

The remaining possibility is therefore that the universe is the result of non-intentional and non-conscious forces, and the probability here is >0

Exactly.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 02:11 PM)Free Wrote:  Of course they lack belief. They lack belief until they obtain it.

How do you know they lack belief? Do other animals have beliefs? Does possessing a belief require language?

Do infants have any beliefs at all?

Which part of "lack belief" do you interpret as "possessing a belief"?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 08:38 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How do you know they lack belief? Do other animals have beliefs? Does possessing a belief require language?

Do infants have any beliefs at all?

Which part of "lack belief" do you interpret as "possessing a belief"?

Do rocks have beliefs? Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-08-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:48 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I am leaving the possibility open; it is you who is making a claim that is it only humans.

Arrogant, narrow, anthropocentric bullshit. Drinking Beverage

The claim is justified because you haven't demonstrated any evidence to support the possibility. You make an assumption that other self-ware creatures have some kind of human-like ability, and in that effect you humanize them.

No, I haven't done any such thing.

Quote:The reason that is arrogant is that you believe that creatures that are not human should equate somehow to human beings, instead of respecting those self-aware creatures for their own non-human characteristics as non human.

That's not even close to what I think.

Quote:We cannot make assumptions regarding how other self-aware creatures view things. We should never be so arrogant with our intelligence as to expect them to be anything like us at all.

You cannot restrict it to humans; that is making an unwarranted claim.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:48 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 08:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't see why anyone misunderstands this. Consider

Infants don't have beliefs about capitalism, ballet, stellar evolution, an many other things. They lack those beliefs.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Facepalm

I think he actually has a point. The "born this way" argument has never seemed sensible to me either. If a baby is an atheist for that reason, so is a dog or a bacterium or a rock. The word is only meaningful in a context where you have enough intelligence and awareness to know what the alternatives are.

After all, a baby can't walk or talk or feed itself either. Are these considered natural default states for adult humans as well?

The baby does not stay a baby. Facepalm

If the human is never indoctrinated with bullshit, he or she won't believe the bullshit.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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