Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  And no one is making that claim. The claim is that there is no evidence of intentionality.

No, Free suggested that unintentionality should be accepted as a default position.

And you previously suggested it should be accepted as the "working hypothesis".If you want to retract that, and now merely just claim that there is no evidence for intentionality, than so be it.

No, I will not retract that. You really don't get it.

If there is no evidence of something, there is no reason to include it.

This is how critical thinking works.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 08:44 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, Free suggested that unintentionality should be accepted as a default position.

And you previously suggested it should be accepted as the "working hypothesis".If you want to retract that, and now merely just claim that there is no evidence for intentionality, than so be it.

No, I will not retract that. You really don't get it.

If there is no evidence of something, there is no reason to include it.

This is how critical thinking works.

Except for Bigfoot. We should start including it into biology classes because...come on!

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10-08-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The analogy is false. The universe is here. No one admits they put it here, either way. Your wife has a bullet hole in her head, and you admit you did it. "Intentionality" is these two situations are entirely different concepts.

The universe is here would be analogous to the bullet in the head, in my example.

Intentionality is the same in both of these situations, at least in terms of the meaning of the word. Just like unintentional would be.

If I were to claim that the universe was a product of unintentional forces, the meaning of the word would be the same as implied in the bullet in the hole example.

"Unintentionalality" is not a thing. There is intentionality or not.
There is no evidence of intentionality or pixies.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The examples are totally different.
1. We have all kinds of instances where we know that people can shoot others. That NEVER has/had occurred with universes.
2. No one claimed they made a universe.

Any problems you see with claims of intentionality, would just as easily apply to claims of unintionality.

Any attempt to raise the status of one over the other, requires a great deal of confirmation bias to support.

Unintentionality is not the claim. Stop doing that. Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Any problems you see with claims of intentionality, would just as easily apply to claims of unintionality.

Any attempt to raise the status of one over the other, requires a great deal of confirmation bias to support.

Unintentionality is not the claim. Stop doing that. Facepalm

Tomasia keeps shifting the burden of proof. Dodgy Surprise of the century Drinking Beverage

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10-08-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:31 AM)Free Wrote:  We cannot eliminate Y based upon "no evidence" because Y does not have the same claim upon it as X does ie; God/Creator.

Are you claiming that claims of something be unintentional don’t have have the same upon it as claims of intentionality do?

Quote:You don't seem to understand. It's not a matter of "no evidence." It's a matter of elimination.

Of course it’s a matter of “no evidence”. It’s because there is “no evidence”, that you're eliminating it in the first place.

Quote:If X has been eliminated, and Y has not, then Y becomes the default position.

Let’s ask again. On what basis, if it’s not “no evidence” is X eliminated but Y is not?
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10-08-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
When something doesn't exist or didn't occur, all that could be expected to demonstrate that is the nonexistence of any evidence that it exists/occurred. Drinking Beverage

It is pretty fucking simple.

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10-08-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:48 AM)Free Wrote:  The claim is justified because you haven't demonstrated any evidence to support the possibility. You make an assumption that other self-ware creatures have some kind of human-like ability, and in that effect you humanize them.

No, I haven't done any such thing.

Your words are eteched in stone, Chas:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid828962

How sure are you that other self-aware creatures ascribe meaning to existence? We know this is true about humans, because it is indeed a human quality. So how can you deny that you are ascribing a human-like quality to other self-aware creatures?

You cannot make this claim at all about other self-aware creatures. Period.

Quote:
Quote:The reason that is arrogant is that you believe that creatures that are not human should equate somehow to human beings, instead of respecting those self-aware creatures for their own non-human characteristics as non human.

That's not even close to what I think.

Seriously?

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

Quote:
Quote:We cannot make assumptions regarding how other self-aware creatures view things. We should never be so arrogant with our intelligence as to expect them to be anything like us at all.

You cannot restrict it to humans; that is making an unwarranted claim.

You made a claim of certainty. YOU made the positive claim:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

I'm asking you to demonstrate any truth to it.

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10-08-2015, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 09:03 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  Unintentionality is not the claim. Stop doing that. Facepalm

Yes it is.

A person who wasn't making a claim, would state he doesn't know or believe it was intentional or not.

According to you.

Person A: "I don't know or believe if it's intentional or not", is not making a claim (I agree)

Person B: "It was unintentional", also is not making a claim ( I don't agree)

But

Person C: "It was intentional", is making a claim.

If person B wanted to convince person A, do you not see why the burden of proof falls on person B? Just as it would if person C was trying to convince person A?
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10-08-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:52 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I haven't done any such thing.

Your words are eteched in stone, Chas:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid828962

How sure are you that other self-aware creatures ascribe meaning to existence? We know this is true about humans, because it is indeed a human quality. So how can you deny that you are ascribing a human-like quality to other self-aware creatures?

You cannot make this claim at all about other self-aware creatures. Period.

Quote:That's not even close to what I think.

Seriously?

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

Quote:You cannot restrict it to humans; that is making an unwarranted claim.

You made a claim of certainty. YOU made the positive claim:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

I'm asking you to demonstrate any truth to it.

Chas isn't attributing other animals with any "human-like" traits or beliefs or feelings. He seems to be describing animal behavior using an example of behavior in another animal (humans).

It isn't anthropomorphizing animals to describe their behavior in similar ways to how we describe human behaviors. Now, it would be if he were giving them some sort of excessive credit for thought or beliefs, but it seems pretty straightforward that other animals prefer existing over not existing. Watch an animal be hunted. Drinking Beverage

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