Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  Unintentionality is not the claim. Stop doing that. Facepalm

Yes it is.

If I claim that Bob hit his wife unintentionally, I am making a claim, just as if I were to claim he did it intentionally.

A person who wasn't making a claim, would state he doesn't know or believe it was intentional or not.

Still using examples with a conscious entity. The universe is not an example where any conscious entity has any evidence to have ever been involved...at all...at any time...ever.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-08-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:52 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I haven't done any such thing.

Your words are eteched in stone, Chas:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid828962

How sure are you that other self-aware creatures ascribe meaning to existence? We know this is true about humans, because it is indeed a human quality. So how can you deny that you are ascribing a human-like quality to other self-aware creatures?

You cannot make this claim at all about other self-aware creatures. Period.

Your claim denies any possibility of it and that is a ridiculous and unsupportable claim.

Quote:
Quote:That's not even close to what I think.

Seriously?

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

Quote:You cannot restrict it to humans; that is making an unwarranted claim.

You made a claim of certainty. YOU made the positive claim:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

I'm asking you to demonstrate any truth to it.

Until you can prove that there is no possibility of other self-aware creatures, you cannot claim that meaning is restricted to humans.

You are making a logical error.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:52 AM)Free Wrote:  Your words are eteched in stone, Chas:


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid828962

How sure are you that other self-aware creatures ascribe meaning to existence? We know this is true about humans, because it is indeed a human quality. So how can you deny that you are ascribing a human-like quality to other self-aware creatures?

You cannot make this claim at all about other self-aware creatures. Period.


Seriously?



You made a claim of certainty. YOU made the positive claim:


I'm asking you to demonstrate any truth to it.

Chas isn't attributing other animals with any "human-like" traits or beliefs or feelings. He seems to be describing animal behavior using an example of behavior in another animal (humans).

Hence, he is making a comparison between humans and other self-aware creatures, and reaching a conclusion of certainty that other self-aware creatures have a similar ability as humans to ascribe some kind of meaning to existence.

That is a positive claim. No doubt about it.

Quote:It isn't anthropomorphizing animals to describe their behavior in similar ways to how we describe human behaviors. Now, it would be if he were giving them some sort of excessive credit for thought or beliefs, but it seems pretty straightforward that other animals prefer existing over not existing. Watch an animal be hunted. Drinking Beverage

That does not address the point.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  Unintentionality is not the claim. Stop doing that. Facepalm

Yes it is.

A person who wasn't making a claim, would state he doesn't know or believe it was intentional or not.

According to you.

Person A: "I don't know or believe if it's intentional or not", is not making a claim (I agree)

Person B: "It was unintentional", also is not making a claim

But

Person C: "It was intentional", is making a claim.

If person B wanted to convince person A, do you not see why the burden of proof falls on person B? Just as it would if person C was trying to convince person A?

It is not about people's intentions; your example is pointless and confused.

The universe exhibits intentionality in its existence and operation or not; there is no evidence that it does.
Therefore, we don't assume intentionality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 09:04 AM
Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:02 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Chas isn't attributing other animals with any "human-like" traits or beliefs or feelings. He seems to be describing animal behavior using an example of behavior in another animal (humans).

Hence, he is making a comparison between humans and other self-aware creatures, and reaching a conclusion of certainty that other self-aware creatures have a similar ability as humans to ascribe some kind of meaning to existence.

That is a positive claim. No doubt about it.

Quote:It isn't anthropomorphizing animals to describe their behavior in similar ways to how we describe human behaviors. Now, it would be if he were giving them some sort of excessive credit for thought or beliefs, but it seems pretty straightforward that other animals prefer existing over not existing. Watch an animal be hunted. Drinking Beverage

That does not address the point.

As Chas pointed out, assuming that valuing existence is a uniquely human behavior is an assumption without evidence.

Animals resisting death suggests they value living over not living.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-08-2015, 09:05 AM
Why I'm a Theist
And for Tomasia.


Rock falls off cliff and kills man unintentionally. World stunned that rock was able to tell world it wasn't intentional.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-08-2015, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 09:17 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  The universe exhibits intentionality in its existence and operation or not; there is no evidence that it does.

There is no evidence or reason to assume unintentionality. There is no evidence that it is.

Person A can continue to believe he is unsure one way or the other, that there's isn't any evidence to side with one position over the other, to assume one as a default over the other, or even as a working hypothesis.

The only reason you prefer to start with unintentionality, is because you like it more, that's it.
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10-08-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:04 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:02 AM)Free Wrote:  Hence, he is making a comparison between humans and other self-aware creatures, and reaching a conclusion of certainty that other self-aware creatures have a similar ability as humans to ascribe some kind of meaning to existence.

That is a positive claim. No doubt about it.


That does not address the point.

As Chas pointed out, assuming that valuing existence is a uniquely human behavior is an assumption without evidence. Animals resisting death suggests they value living over not living.

we are not speaking about how animals resist death, for we already know all sentient life does that. That is not teh question here.

The question is here regarding whether or not self-aware creatures have the thinking ability to ascribe meaning to existence, such as humans do.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  The universe exhibits intentionality in its existence and operation or not; there is no evidence that it does.

There is no evidence or reason to assume the unintentionality. There is no evidence that it is.

Person A can continue to believe he is unsure one way or the other, that there's isn't any evidence to side with one position over the other, to assume one a default over the other, or even as a working hypothesis.

Rock rolls down hill, it was unintentional.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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10-08-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:14 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:04 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As Chas pointed out, assuming that valuing existence is a uniquely human behavior is an assumption without evidence. Animals resisting death suggests they value living over not living.

we are not speaking about how animals resist death, for we already know all sentient life does that. That is not teh question here.

The question is here regarding whether or not self-aware creatures have the thinking ability to ascribe meaning to existence, such as humans do.

Okay, I am aware of that. What is your point? What is evidence of the meaning of existence going to look like for you in a non-human animal?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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