Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 10:01 AM by Chas.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  The working hypothesis does not include that for which there is no evidence. Why is that confusing to you?

A hypothesis is not a belief or a claim.

Oh for fuck's sake, if unintentionality cannot be exhibited it cannot be used as a working hypothesis, duh.

(To quote you: "unintentionality" is not a thing that can be exhibited.")

I have never claimed "unintentionality" as part of a working hypothesis. Where do you get that?

Once more: Read what people actually write.


Edit:
Quote:(To quote you: "unintentionality" is not a thing that can be exhibited.")

You clearly do not understand that statement.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Oh for fuck's sake, if unintentionality cannot be exhibited it cannot be used as a working hypothesis, duh.

(To quote you: "unintentionality" is not a thing that can be exhibited.")

I have never claimed "unintentionality" as part of a working hypothesis. Where do you get that?

Once more: Read what people actually write.

I don't think he understands what he reads.

He is clearly determined to only find a way to promote his god-centered idiocy.

It is almost as if he isn't actually here to learn but is here to preach and proselytize. But that would be counter to every reason he has given for being here. And that would make him dishonest, I am sure he isn't dishonest /sarcasmfont Drinking Beverage

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10-08-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:14 AM)Free Wrote:  we are not speaking about how animals resist death, for we already know all sentient life does that. That is not teh question here.

The question is here regarding whether or not self-aware creatures have the thinking ability to ascribe meaning to existence, such as humans do.

Okay, I am aware of that. What is your point? What is evidence of the meaning of existence going to look like for you in a non-human animal?

That's my entire point; it's unknown. And we cannot even assume it, much less than be certain about it. No

That's all it is.

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10-08-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 10:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:15 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Okay, I am aware of that. What is your point? What is evidence of the meaning of existence going to look like for you in a non-human animal?

That's my entire point; it's unknown. And we cannot even assume it, much less than be certain about it. No

That's all it is.

I don't understand. It is not possible for another species to value life in a similar manner to the way humans do, or humans don't possess a way of attaining evidence for that?

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10-08-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 09:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  I have never claimed "unintentionality" as part of a working hypothesis. Where do you get that?

Uhm, let's see, to quote you:

"Therefore, the logical working hypothesis for investigating reality is that there isn't any intentionality." #483

"I said that the rational working hypothesis is that there is no intentionality."
#554

And before you say no intentionality doesn't mean unintentionality, let's quote you one more time:

""unintentionality" is simply the absence of intentionality." #490

Let's also provide quotes from a post in which I allowed you to clarify, and retract this:

(10-08-2015 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And you previously suggested it should be accepted as the "working hypothesis".If you want to retract that, and now merely just claim that there is no evidence for intentionality, than so be it.

No, I will not retract that.
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10-08-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 07:48 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think he actually has a point. The "born this way" argument has never seemed sensible to me either. If a baby is an atheist for that reason, so is a dog or a bacterium or a rock. The word is only meaningful in a context where you have enough intelligence and awareness to know what the alternatives are.

After all, a baby can't walk or talk or feed itself either. Are these considered natural default states for adult humans as well?

The baby does not stay a baby. Facepalm

If the human is never indoctrinated with bullshit, he or she won't believe the bullshit.

I hear what you're saying, but if the last statement were strictly true, there would be no theists in the world at all. Before anyone could be indoctrinated, someone had to think up the idea of gods without being indoctrinated. You could argue that the creation of gods was entirely motivated by a desire to control other people, but I don't think it's that simple. Some of the people who initially dreamed up the "God" concept probably believed it.

In any case, I still say that the statement "I'm an atheist because I was born that way" is information-free. Most, if not all, adult atheists are aware of the "God" concept and have chosen not to accept it. I would even guess that most of them were indoctrinated with religious beliefs as children, and had to overcome that indoctrination in order to become atheists. You would have a hard time finding an adult who is an atheist in the same way, and for the same reasons, as an infant -- because he/she is not even aware of the concept.

My atheism is hard-won. It cheapens that achievement to say that I was "born that way". It's actually the reverse. I was born into a Catholic family and indoctrinated with that dogma throughout my childhood. Atheism is not the default for me. It's something I had to work for.
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10-08-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:02 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  The baby does not stay a baby. Facepalm

If the human is never indoctrinated with bullshit, he or she won't believe the bullshit.

I hear what you're saying, but if the last statement were strictly true, there would be no theists in the world at all. Before anyone could be indoctrinated, someone had to think up the idea of gods without being indoctrinated. You could argue that the creation of gods was entirely motivated by a desire to control other people, but I don't think it's that simple. Some of the people who initially dreamed up the "God" concept probably believed it.

In any case, I still say that the statement "I'm an atheist because I was born that way" is information-free. Most, if not all, adult atheists are aware of the "God" concept and have chosen not to accept it. I would even guess that most of them were indoctrinated with religious beliefs as children, and had to overcome that indoctrination in order to become atheists. You would have a hard time finding an adult who is an atheist in the same way, and for the same reasons, as an infant -- because he/she is not even aware of the concept.

My atheism is hard-won. It cheapens that achievement to say that I was "born that way". It's actually the reverse. I was born into a Catholic family and indoctrinated with that dogma throughout my childhood. Atheism is not the default for me. It's something I had to work for.

Adults think it up, not babies. Without humans imagining it up as adults (or adolescents I guess) to pass on to offspring, theism wouldn't exist just like any other stories.

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10-08-2015, 11:08 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:02 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  The baby does not stay a baby. Facepalm

If the human is never indoctrinated with bullshit, he or she won't believe the bullshit.

I hear what you're saying, but if the last statement were strictly true, there would be no theists in the world at all. Before anyone could be indoctrinated, someone had to think up the idea of gods without being indoctrinated. You could argue that the creation of gods was entirely motivated by a desire to control other people, but I don't think it's that simple. Some of the people who initially dreamed up the "God" concept probably believed it.

In any case, I still say that the statement "I'm an atheist because I was born that way" is information-free. Most, if not all, adult atheists are aware of the "God" concept and have chosen not to accept it. I would even guess that most of them were indoctrinated with religious beliefs as children, and had to overcome that indoctrination in order to become atheists. You would have a hard time finding an adult who is an atheist in the same way, and for the same reasons, as an infant -- because he/she is not even aware of the concept.

My atheism is hard-won. It cheapens that achievement to say that I was "born that way". It's actually the reverse. I was born into a Catholic family and indoctrinated with that dogma throughout my childhood. Atheism is not the default for me. It's something I had to work for.

I think you are suggesting (primarily) that human imagination would still exist.

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10-08-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  I have never claimed "unintentionality" as part of a working hypothesis. Where do you get that?

Uhm, let's see, to quote you:

"Therefore, the logical working hypothesis for investigating reality is that there isn't any intentionality." #483

"I said that the rational working hypothesis is that there is no intentionality."
#554

And before you say no intentionality doesn't mean unintentionality, let's quote you one more time:

""unintentionality" is simply the absence of intentionality." #490

Let's also provide quotes from a post in which I allowed you to clarify, and retract this:

(10-08-2015 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I will not retract that.

You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:02 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I hear what you're saying, but if the last statement were strictly true, there would be no theists in the world at all. Before anyone could be indoctrinated, someone had to think up the idea of gods without being indoctrinated. You could argue that the creation of gods was entirely motivated by a desire to control other people, but I don't think it's that simple. Some of the people who initially dreamed up the "God" concept probably believed it.

In any case, I still say that the statement "I'm an atheist because I was born that way" is information-free. Most, if not all, adult atheists are aware of the "God" concept and have chosen not to accept it. I would even guess that most of them were indoctrinated with religious beliefs as children, and had to overcome that indoctrination in order to become atheists. You would have a hard time finding an adult who is an atheist in the same way, and for the same reasons, as an infant -- because he/she is not even aware of the concept.

My atheism is hard-won. It cheapens that achievement to say that I was "born that way". It's actually the reverse. I was born into a Catholic family and indoctrinated with that dogma throughout my childhood. Atheism is not the default for me. It's something I had to work for.

Adults think it up, not babies. Without humans imagining it up as adults (or adolescents I guess) to pass on to offspring, theism wouldn't exist just like any other stories.

OMG! Without adults we wouldn't have babies, and without babies we wouldn't have adults!
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