Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Adults think it up, not babies. Without humans imagining it up as adults (or adolescents I guess) to pass on to offspring, theism wouldn't exist just like any other stories.

OMG! Without adults we wouldn't have babies, and without babies we wouldn't have adults!

What the hell are you talking about?

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10-08-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:12 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  OMG! Without adults we wouldn't have babies, and without babies we wouldn't have adults!

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm sorry, I was just messing around, I should have put one of these Laugh out load in there.

Again, my apologies.
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10-08-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Uhm, let's see, to quote you:

"Therefore, the logical working hypothesis for investigating reality is that there isn't any intentionality." #483

"I said that the rational working hypothesis is that there is no intentionality."
#554

And before you say no intentionality doesn't mean unintentionality, let's quote you one more time:

""unintentionality" is simply the absence of intentionality." #490

Let's also provide quotes from a post in which I allowed you to clarify, and retract this:

You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

Right, and if we find no evidence of intentionality, then does that mean that there is no intentionality?

If we find no evidence that a man committed a crime, then does it mean that the man committed no crime?
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10-08-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:16 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:12 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What the hell are you talking about?

I'm sorry, I was just messing around, I should have put one of these Laugh out load in there.

Again, my apologies.

Fucking scared me. I was worried I needed to send you an intro biology book. Smile

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10-08-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:17 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

Right, and if we find no evidence of intentionality, then does that mean that there is no intentionality?

If we find no evidence that a man committed a crime, then does it mean that the man committed no crime?

If you find no evidence of intentionality, then the probability of intentionally remains 0 whereas the probability of there being no intention (such that the word or its opposite) don't apply is >0

If no evidence exists that a specific individual committed a crime, then the probability that they committed that crime remains 0 until shown otherwise and the probability of their innocence is >0

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10-08-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

un·in·ten·tion·al
ˌəninˈten(t)SH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
not done on purpose.
"the translation added a layer of unintentional comedy"
synonyms: unintended, accidental, inadvertent, involuntary, unwitting, unthinking, unpremeditated, unconscious; spontaneous; random, fortuitous, serendipitous, fluky

But to clarify further, you claim unintentionally is not a property of a thing, but in the same breathe, wouldn't intentionality also not be a property of a thing?
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10-08-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 10:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 10:46 AM)Free Wrote:  That's my entire point; it's unknown. And we cannot even assume it, much less than be certain about it. No

That's all it is.

I don't understand. It is not possible for another species to value life in a similar manner to the way humans do, or humans don't possess a way of attaining evidence for that?

Again, the question has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not another species values life in a similar manner as humans do. This understanding is not even in the ballpark.

In this context of this discussion with Chas, we were discussing how the human experience evaluates existence in general; how we determine it as a reality. I then said the following:

Quote:You need to understand that we are human, and to us nothing exists until it is discovered as existing by humans.

I would find it very interesting to see anyone demonstrate existence with no human to observe it. You see, it's irrelevant what may or may not exist outside of the human experience, for without us, existence is meaningless.

Clearly I am stating the obvious above. I am merely stating that to we humans, nothing exists to us until it is discovered by us.

Hence, existence is meaningless and irrelevant to us, if we don't exist to observe it. This is blatantly obvious.

So you can see that i am speaking of existence in its totality, and not existence in terms of just how any species values life. But in response to my position regarding existence in general, Chas stated the following:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

Since the context dictated existence in general, and how we as humans perceive it, then Chas' statement above is understood as speaking about how other self-aware creatures should find general existence meaningful similar to how we humans do.

How else was this to be understood?

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10-08-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:21 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 10:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't understand. It is not possible for another species to value life in a similar manner to the way humans do, or humans don't possess a way of attaining evidence for that?

Again, the question has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not another species values life in a similar manner as humans do. This understanding is not even in the ballpark.

In this context of this discussion with Chas, we were discussing how the human experience evaluates existence in general; how we determine it as a reality. I then said the following:

Quote:You need to understand that we are human, and to us nothing exists until it is discovered as existing by humans.

I would find it very interesting to see anyone demonstrate existence with no human to observe it. You see, it's irrelevant what may or may not exist outside of the human experience, for without us, existence is meaningless.

Clearly I am stating the obvious above. I am merely stating that to we humans, nothing exists to us until it is discovered by us.

Hence, existence is meaningless and irrelevant to us, if we don't exist to observe it. This is blatantly obvious.

So you can see that i am speaking of existence in its totality, and not existence in terms of just any species values life. But in response to my position regarding existence in general, Chas stated the following:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

Since the context dictated existence in general, and how we as humans perceive it, then Chas' statement above is understood as speaking about how other self-aware creatures should find general existence meaningful similar to how we humans do.

How else was this to be understood?

I think you two are on two different subjects with respect to existence and are not only not on the same page, but reading/writing different books.

I don't think Chas has ever tried to suggest that we could know or evaluate the universe if we didn't exist to do so.

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10-08-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:17 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

Right, and if we find no evidence of intentionality, then does that mean that there is no intentionality?

If we find no evidence that a man committed a crime, then does it mean that the man committed no crime?

If there is no evidence then we don't include its existence as an assumption.

If there is no evidence that should be there, then we can conclude that it is very likely non-existent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

un·in·ten·tion·al
ˌəninˈten(t)SH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
not done on purpose.
"the translation added a layer of unintentional comedy"
synonyms: unintended, accidental, inadvertent, involuntary, unwitting, unthinking, unpremeditated, unconscious; spontaneous; random, fortuitous, serendipitous, fluky

But to clarify further, you claim unintentionally is not a property of a thing, but in the same breathe, wouldn't intentionality also not be a property of a thing?

Someone cites a definition, instantly loses credibility.

Describing the universe as unintentional, still suggests the possibility that intentionally created universe is a possibility.

Also, you still don't fucking get words like "accidental" or "random" which is clearly a part of your issue.

The other part of your problem is your dishonesty. Drinking Beverage

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