Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:21 AM)Free Wrote:  Again, the question has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not another species values life in a similar manner as humans do. This understanding is not even in the ballpark.

In this context of this discussion with Chas, we were discussing how the human experience evaluates existence in general; how we determine it as a reality. I then said the following:


Clearly I am stating the obvious above. I am merely stating that to we humans, nothing exists to us until it is discovered by us.

Hence, existence is meaningless and irrelevant to us, if we don't exist to observe it. This is blatantly obvious.

So you can see that i am speaking of existence in its totality, and not existence in terms of just any species values life. But in response to my position regarding existence in general, Chas stated the following:


Since the context dictated existence in general, and how we as humans perceive it, then Chas' statement above is understood as speaking about how other self-aware creatures should find general existence meaningful similar to how we humans do.

How else was this to be understood?

I think you two are on two different subjects with respect to existence and are not only not on the same page, but reading/writing different books.

I don't think Chas has ever tried to suggest that we could know or evaluate the universe if we didn't exist to do so.

You're pulling my leg, right?

Oh forget it.

I'll just keep my poor impressions of this conversation and move along.

Drinking Beverage

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10-08-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:32 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I think you two are on two different subjects with respect to existence and are not only not on the same page, but reading/writing different books.

I don't think Chas has ever tried to suggest that we could know or evaluate the universe if we didn't exist to do so.

You're pulling my leg, right?

Oh forget it.

I'll just keep my poor impressions of this conversation and move along.

Drinking Beverage

No leg pulling intended. Tis a conversation I'll move on from too.

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10-08-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:02 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I hear what you're saying, but if the last statement were strictly true, there would be no theists in the world at all. Before anyone could be indoctrinated, someone had to think up the idea of gods without being indoctrinated. You could argue that the creation of gods was entirely motivated by a desire to control other people, but I don't think it's that simple. Some of the people who initially dreamed up the "God" concept probably believed it.

In any case, I still say that the statement "I'm an atheist because I was born that way" is information-free. Most, if not all, adult atheists are aware of the "God" concept and have chosen not to accept it. I would even guess that most of them were indoctrinated with religious beliefs as children, and had to overcome that indoctrination in order to become atheists. You would have a hard time finding an adult who is an atheist in the same way, and for the same reasons, as an infant -- because he/she is not even aware of the concept.

My atheism is hard-won. It cheapens that achievement to say that I was "born that way". It's actually the reverse. I was born into a Catholic family and indoctrinated with that dogma throughout my childhood. Atheism is not the default for me. It's something I had to work for.

Adults think it up, not babies. Without humans imagining it up as adults (or adolescents I guess) to pass on to offspring, theism wouldn't exist just like any other stories.

I think you're missing my point. If a baby could somehow make it to adulthood without being taught anything by adults, and had to figure everything out for himself, he would very likely conclude (like most primitive people) that the powerful forces of nature were controlled by supernatural beings. He wouldn't come up with modern science all by himself, from scratch.

To say "adults think it up" says nothing, really. Adults think everything up. Babies aren't capable of anything that can really be called thinking. Science is "thought up" by adults just like religion is. Babies learn what they are taught.

And if theism can only arise by indoctrination, who indoctrinated the first theist? I claim that it can and does arise in other ways.
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10-08-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  You keep making claims about something called "unintentionality". There is no such thing; it is not a property of anything.

There is the presence of intentionality and there is the absence of intentionality.

un·in·ten·tion·al
ˌəninˈten(t)SH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
not done on purpose.
"the translation added a layer of unintentional comedy"
synonyms: unintended, accidental, inadvertent, involuntary, unwitting, unthinking, unpremeditated, unconscious; spontaneous; random, fortuitous, serendipitous, fluky

But to clarify further, you claim unintentionally is not a property of a thing, but in the same breathe, wouldn't intentionality also not be a property of a thing?

"Unintentionality" isn't a property of anything - it is simply the lack of the actual property of intentionality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:21 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 10:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't understand. It is not possible for another species to value life in a similar manner to the way humans do, or humans don't possess a way of attaining evidence for that?

Again, the question has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not another species values life in a similar manner as humans do. This understanding is not even in the ballpark.

In this context of this discussion with Chas, we were discussing how the human experience evaluates existence in general; how we determine it as a reality. I then said the following:

Quote:You need to understand that we are human, and to us nothing exists until it is discovered as existing by humans.

I would find it very interesting to see anyone demonstrate existence with no human to observe it. You see, it's irrelevant what may or may not exist outside of the human experience, for without us, existence is meaningless.

Clearly I am stating the obvious above. I am merely stating that to we humans, nothing exists to us until it is discovered by us.

Hence, existence is meaningless and irrelevant to us, if we don't exist to observe it. This is blatantly obvious.

So you can see that i am speaking of existence in its totality, and not existence in terms of just how any species values life. But in response to my position regarding existence in general, Chas stated the following:

Chas Wrote:I'm quite sure other self-aware creatures find existence meaningful.

Since the context dictated existence in general, and how we as humans perceive it, then Chas' statement above is understood as speaking about how other self-aware creatures should find general existence meaningful similar to how we humans do.

How else was this to be understood?

If I mis-read that and you only meant this in relation to human knowledge, then we're good.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 11:38 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:34 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Adults think it up, not babies. Without humans imagining it up as adults (or adolescents I guess) to pass on to offspring, theism wouldn't exist just like any other stories.

I think you're missing my point. If a baby could somehow make it to adulthood without being taught anything by adults, and had to figure everything out for himself, he would very likely conclude (like most primitive people) that the powerful forces of nature were controlled by supernatural beings. He wouldn't come up with modern science all by himself, from scratch.

To say "adults think it up" says nothing, really. Adults think everything up. Babies aren't capable of anything that can really be called thinking. Science is "thought up" by adults just like religion is. Babies learn what they are taught.

And if theism can only arise by indoctrination, who indoctrinated the first theist? I claim that it can and does arise in other ways.

"...he would very likely conclude (like most primitive people) that the powerful forces of nature were controlled by supernatural beings."

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

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10-08-2015, 11:41 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:19 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:17 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Right, and if we find no evidence of intentionality, then does that mean that there is no intentionality?

If we find no evidence that a man committed a crime, then does it mean that the man committed no crime?

If you find no evidence of intentionality, then the probability of intentionally remains 0 whereas the probability of there being no intention (such that the word or its opposite) don't apply is >0

If no evidence exists that a specific individual committed a crime, then the probability that they committed that crime remains 0 until shown otherwise and the probability of their innocence is >0

What if the man actually committed the crime, but no evidence was found?
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10-08-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:41 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:19 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If you find no evidence of intentionality, then the probability of intentionally remains 0 whereas the probability of there being no intention (such that the word or its opposite) don't apply is >0

If no evidence exists that a specific individual committed a crime, then the probability that they committed that crime remains 0 until shown otherwise and the probability of their innocence is >0

What if the man actually committed the crime, but no evidence was found?

You can't conclude they did it without evidence and the probabilities remain as I state them.

A cause without evidence of it being linked in any way to the effect, is an untestable, unverifiable, and unknowable cause.

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10-08-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:38 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:34 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think you're missing my point. If a baby could somehow make it to adulthood without being taught anything by adults, and had to figure everything out for himself, he would very likely conclude (like most primitive people) that the powerful forces of nature were controlled by supernatural beings. He wouldn't come up with modern science all by himself, from scratch.

To say "adults think it up" says nothing, really. Adults think everything up. Babies aren't capable of anything that can really be called thinking. Science is "thought up" by adults just like religion is. Babies learn what they are taught.

And if theism can only arise by indoctrination, who indoctrinated the first theist? I claim that it can and does arise in other ways.

"...he would very likely conclude (like most primitive people) that the powerful forces of nature were controlled by supernatural beings."

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

By observation. Primitive people with no science have universally attributed forces of nature to supernatural beings. Modern science took hundreds of years of geniuses piggybacking on each other's achievements. No uneducated person is going to come up with it on his own. "Supernatural beings" is a much more plausible answer to the uneducated mind.
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10-08-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 11:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:21 AM)Free Wrote:  Again, the question has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not another species values life in a similar manner as humans do. This understanding is not even in the ballpark.

In this context of this discussion with Chas, we were discussing how the human experience evaluates existence in general; how we determine it as a reality. I then said the following:


Clearly I am stating the obvious above. I am merely stating that to we humans, nothing exists to us until it is discovered by us.

Hence, existence is meaningless and irrelevant to us, if we don't exist to observe it. This is blatantly obvious.

So you can see that i am speaking of existence in its totality, and not existence in terms of just how any species values life. But in response to my position regarding existence in general, Chas stated the following:


Since the context dictated existence in general, and how we as humans perceive it, then Chas' statement above is understood as speaking about how other self-aware creatures should find general existence meaningful similar to how we humans do.

How else was this to be understood?

If I mis-read that and you only meant this in relation to human knowledge, then we're good.

We're good.

And now I can sit back and enjoy the ass kicking you are giving to the arguments these theists are proposing.

Popcorn

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