Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Chas,


Quote:That's all very interesting. Now explain where the creating sentience came from. I'll wait. Drinking Beverage

Did I ever say I know where the Creator came from? My opinion is in regards to where the universe and sentient life came from.
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10-08-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 12:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I agree with the whole "proud of my atheism because of the struggle to escape my childhood indoctrination" thing, but I'm afraid the argument comes apart when you admit that you were indoctrinated as a child. You were born without religion, and it is instilled in you via indoctrination. Babies are atheists; they have no gods. Adults teach it to them, like language.

The unspoken assumption there (although some people here have actually spoken it) is that it is impossible to become a theist without indoctrination, and this is what I'm arguing against. A child growing up is naturally inquisitive, and wants to know why things happen. Unless they're growing up in isolation, they are going to be taught (i.e., "indoctrinated") something. Far better to teach them science than religion -- I think we all agree on that -- but if left to their own devices, they are just as likely (in my opinion, more likely) to arrive at theism of some sort.

Maybe I'm just not stating my argument clearly enough, but I don't see how this is disputable. If I'm wrong, why aren't humans 100% atheist? Who indoctrinated the first theist? Sorry to keep asking that question, but I haven't seen an answer yet.

Why do all birds have wings? Because of selection pressure for wings such that having wings conferred an evolutionary advantage.

Why are human societies historically theist (at least western societies)? Because there was selection pressure within society for theism. This does not mean that theism was inevitable, just like not all wings led to flight in birds nor even that it is inevitable that wings would evolve again in the theropod lineage if we rewound time.

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10-08-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 12:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I agree with the whole "proud of my atheism because of the struggle to escape my childhood indoctrination" thing, but I'm afraid the argument comes apart when you admit that you were indoctrinated as a child. You were born without religion, and it is instilled in you via indoctrination. Babies are atheists; they have no gods. Adults teach it to them, like language.

The unspoken assumption there (although some people here have actually spoken it) is that it is impossible to become a theist without indoctrination, and this is what I'm arguing against. A child growing up is naturally inquisitive, and wants to know why things happen. Unless they're growing up in isolation, they are going to be taught (i.e., "indoctrinated") something. Far better to teach them science than religion -- I think we all agree on that -- but if left to their own devices, they are just as likely (in my opinion, more likely) to arrive at theism of some sort.

Maybe I'm just not stating my argument clearly enough, but I don't see how this is disputable. If I'm wrong, why aren't humans 100% atheist? Who indoctrinated the first theist? Sorry to keep asking that question, but I haven't seen an answer yet.

I contend it is impossible to become a theist without indoctrination. Indoctrination is not restricted to exterior human interaction, as it can also begin by self-indoctrination when the individual himself formulates a set order of beliefs.

Hence, all religious persons are indoctrinated one way or another.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Quote:I don't see why anyone misunderstands this. Consider

Infants don't have beliefs about capitalism, ballet, stellar evolution, an many other things. They lack those beliefs.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Facepalm

So atheism is the non-thinking persons position. Just as I always suspected.
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10-08-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:30 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Chas,


Quote:That's all very interesting. Now explain where the creating sentience came from. I'll wait. Drinking Beverage

Did I ever say I know where the Creator came from? My opinion is in regards to where the universe and sentient life came from.

Then you have no explanation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-08-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:32 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
Quote:I don't see why anyone misunderstands this. Consider

Infants don't have beliefs about capitalism, ballet, stellar evolution, an many other things. They lack those beliefs.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Facepalm

So atheism is the non-thinking persons position. Just as I always suspected.

You are beginning to look enormously dishonest.

Consider

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:28 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Free,

Quote:Excuse me? Evidence? You have not produced a shred of evidence.

Its obvious you have no idea what evidence is. Evidence is nothing more than facts that make a conclusion more likely than other wise. I have cited 6 facts that comport with belief in a Creator. You assume that evidence is conclusive proof of something which would be required if I claimed its a fact that God caused the universe and sentient life to exist. Its not a fact God caused the universe its a belief which I supported with evidence.

1. The fact the universe exists
2. The fact life exists
3. The fact sentient life exists
4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.
5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.
6. The fact that sentient beings (humans) create virtual universes.


These are facts, no one has disputed that and I have argued from those facts that a theistic hypothesis is more likely true than a naturalistic explanation. Of course you will continue to maintain I haven't produced evidence but any impartial person reading would conclude otherwise.

Quote:Could you imagine what kind of society we would have if people could claim that certain things exist when they actually don't? Could you imagine someone claiming that a murder happened, and points the finger at an innocent man, and he goes to jail when no murder ever actually happened?

The burden of evidence in a criminal case where someone may lose life and liberty is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. No one goes to jail just based on an opinion they committed murder.

Quote:That's the difference between we atheists and you theists. We have respect for the truth, whereas you simply do not respect neither the truth, nor the required process to obtain it.

Is it a fact that natural forces alone caused all we observe?

drewpaul,

Do you believe that it is more likely that god exists? Or are you certain that he does exist?
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10-08-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Chas,

Quote:No, you haven't. You have offered an argument based on your interpretations of facts.

By all means man up and cite your own facts in favor of what you believe.

Quote:Now you've got it. I don't believe in any of the explanations of the origin of the universe. I simply weigh the strength of the evidence for each.

There is no evidence of a sentient creator.

Just because you reject evidence doesn't make it non-evidence. So you are an a-naturalist as well as an a-theist? Do you claim that folks who promote the naturalist view provide no evidence either?
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10-08-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 12:13 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I never said "only" -- I said "very likely". The only place I've seen "only" is on the other side of this argument -- the claim that the only way to acquire religious beliefs is by indoctrination. Again I ask: Who indoctrinated the first theist?

In real life (in today's world), people are taught explanations for things. They are taught religion, or they are taught science, or they are taught both. The claim that I'm fighting against here is that if they are not taught anything, they are guaranteed to remain atheist. I claim otherwise. If this were true, there never would have been any theists at all. The concept had to originate somehow. History has shown that, in the absence of better explanations (such as science), people are likely to come up with some sort of theism. Not guaranteed, but likely.

I don't understand why this simple and obvious idea is meeting such fierce resistance.

"Who indoctrinated the first theist?"

The first adult with an imagination and the language necessary to communicate their imaginary beliefs.

No -- you are assuming that this adult is knowingly "making things up", and you don't know that. If said adult believes what he is teaching, then he would be the first theist -- and my question still hasn't been answered.

Quote:"The claim that I'm fighting against here is that if they are not taught anything, they are guaranteed to remain atheist."

The claim is that there is no pressure to become religious or develop supernatural beliefs or be introduced to any god claims. By default, this means atheist if they do not accept any god claims.

"If this were true, there never would have been any theists at all. The concept had to originate somehow. History has shown that, in the absence of better explanations (such as science), people are likely to come up with some sort of theism. Not guaranteed, but likely."

The observation that some human societies have developed religions, does not mean it is inevitable that religion develops. We observe that some societies did develop religion, that is as far as you can extrapolate out to beyond asking why it evolved.

Let me put it this way. You seem to suggest that religion is inevitable at the individual level whether indoctrinated or not. This is akin to saying that any and all adaptations within a lineage are inevitable if you were somehow able to rewind time and start life all over again. Would eyes evolve? Or would some other structure serving the same basic function evolve?

"I don't understand why this simple and obvious idea is meeting such fierce resistance."

Because it isn't obvious that humans will develop supernatural beliefs by default.

I have never claimed that religious belief is "inevitable" or a default, only that it is very likely. You are attributing to me a stronger claim than I am making. I am saying neither theism nor atheism is inevitable.
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10-08-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
This is relevant to the discussion here too.

(10-08-2015 12:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 11:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Now, prove that a rock that became dislodged and killed someone did so unintentionally.

(The unintentionally applies to the rock itself. Can the rock have intentional or unintentional reasons for moving and killing?)

That the person who was killed was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. That it was just a coincidence that the rock hit him, etc... etc..

(10-08-2015 12:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 12:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That the person who was killed was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. That it was just a coincidence that the rock hit him.

This proves that the rock had unintentions? Logically connect the evidence of your case to the rock having unintentions.

(10-08-2015 12:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 12:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That the person who was killed was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. That it was just a coincidence that the rock hit him, etc... etc..

If you find coincidence/observation to be sufficient to demonstrate that effects can be generated without intentional/conscious causes, then why the fuck do you conclude gods exist? That is entirely hypocritical.

I want a level of proof for the rock's uninetentions that you hold your god to.

Me
"Now, prove that a rock that became dislodged and killed someone did so unintentionally.

(The unintentionally applies to the rock itself. Can the rock have intentional or unintentional reasons for moving and killing?)"


Tomdishonestasia
"That the person who was killed was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. That it was just a coincidence that the rock hit him."

Me
"This proves that the rock had unintentions? Logically connect the evidence of your case to the rock having unintentions.

If you find coincidence/observation to be sufficient to demonstrate that effects can be generated without intentional/conscious causes, then why the fuck do you conclude gods exist? That is entirely hypocritical.

I want a level of proof for the rock's uninetentions that you hold your god to."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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