Why I'm a Theist
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10-08-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Tomasia,

Quote:If X and Y are two competing possibilities, and the only two possibilities.

If X has 0 evidence in support of it

And Y has 0 evidence in support of it

Which is more likely?

According to Free if X has 0 evidence in support, (even though Y does as well), X is eliminated, and Y is to be accepted as a default position. I'm wondering if the problem is apparent to you at this point?

I suspect the argument will be that Y (the position that natural forces alone are responsible for the existence of the universe and sentient life) is inherently more viable because its a fact natural forces exist.

Of course they're serious flaws to this argument. This would be like saying if the only thing that existed were baseballs that even though we have no evidence baseballs could or did produce their own existence the default position should be they produced themselves because we know for a fact baseballs exist. An obvious piece of circular reasoning. They may also invoke Occams razor and suggest the explanation that multiplies the fewest entities is the preferred explanation. Therefore the preferred explanation that multiplies the fewest entities is that natural forces (always existed) or caused themselves to exist. Is that really an explanation or it is just invoking magic? What is 'natural' about the notion natural forces caused themselves to exist uncaused out of nothing? The notion natural forces 'always' existed is even more problematic. There is a corollary to Occum's razor, we should avoid multiplying entities beyond necessity but we should also avoid subtracting them below necessity. We don't know that invoking a creator is beyond necessity.
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10-08-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 02:11 PM)Free Wrote:  Of course they lack belief. They lack belief until they obtain it.

How do you know they lack belief? Do other animals have beliefs? Does possessing a belief require language?

Do infants have any beliefs at all?

Why yes. Yes they do. My baby brother said he believed the filioque debate was absurd, when he was 3 weeks old. Rolleyes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-08-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
Quote:The baby does not stay a baby. Facepalm

If the human is never indoctrinated with bullshit, he or she won't believe the bullshit.


Good so your disbelief is a far cry from a babies 'lack of belief'. The claim theism is bullshit is a very strong claim.
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10-08-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 01:20 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  What is 'natural' about the notion natural forces caused themselves to exist uncaused out of nothing?

The word you're looking for is physics.




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 12:53 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ?????

But theism did develop, and it didn't develop by indoctrination. Why is that so hard to accept? I give up. I'm done with this argument. I have either lost my mind, or nobody is understanding what I'm saying. Either way, I don't need this. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over and having people ignore it or misunderstand it.

I think theism evolved through story telling.

Story telling was the major form of sedentary entertainment for a very, very long time.

All you need is a very charismatic story teller who develops followers and has people believing in his stories.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-08-2015, 01:48 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 01:56 PM by Free.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 01:20 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Tomasia,

Quote:If X and Y are two competing possibilities, and the only two possibilities.

If X has 0 evidence in support of it

And Y has 0 evidence in support of it

Which is more likely?

According to Free if X has 0 evidence in support, (even though Y does as well), X is eliminated, and Y is to be accepted as a default position. I'm wondering if the problem is apparent to you at this point?

I suspect the argument will be that Y (the position that natural forces alone are responsible for the existence of the universe and sentient life) is inherently more viable because its a fact natural forces exist.

Of course they're serious flaws to this argument. This would be like saying if the only thing that existed were baseballs that even though we have no evidence baseballs could or did produce their own existence the default position should be they produced themselves because we know for a fact baseballs exist. An obvious piece of circular reasoning. They may also invoke Occams razor and suggest the explanation that multiplies the fewest entities is the preferred explanation. Therefore the preferred explanation that multiplies the fewest entities is that natural forces (always existed) or caused themselves to exist. Is that really an explanation or it is just invoking magic? What is 'natural' about the notion natural forces caused themselves to exist uncaused out of nothing? The notion natural forces 'always' existed is even more problematic. There is a corollary to Occum's razor, we should avoid multiplying entities beyond necessity but we should also avoid subtracting them below necessity. We don't know that invoking a creator is beyond necessity.

Your suspicions are incorrect.

1. There are two choices, X and Y.

X represents Intentionality ie God/Creator.

Therefore that which represents Intentionality is identified as God/Creator.

Y can actually represent anything other than Intentionality, but we reasonably conclude that Y can represent Unintentionality because it is the only other available possibility.

Therefore that which represents Unintentionality is identified as UNKNOWN.

2. X- Intentionality- is eliminated because of a complete and total lack of evidence.

3. Y - Unintentionality- stands alone as the only other available option.

We do not know what Unintentionality represents, therefore we do not make a positive claim in regards to natural forces. But what we do know is that it does not represent Intentionality/God/Creator because if it did it would not be Unintentionality.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-08-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 01:48 PM)Free Wrote:  2. X- Intentionality- is eliminated because of a complete and total lack of evidence.

3. Y - Unintentionality- stands alone as the only other available option.


Doesn't Y also have a complete and total lack of evidence? And if so, wouldn't it be eliminated as well because of this?
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10-08-2015, 01:55 PM
Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 01:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 01:48 PM)Free Wrote:  2. X- Intentionality- is eliminated because of a complete and total lack of evidence.

3. Y - Unintentionality- stands alone as the only other available option.


Doesn't Y also have a complete and total lack of evidence? And if so, wouldn't it be eliminated as well because of this?

No, because through elimination of X, only Y remains.

You'd get this if you were actually here to understand and not preach.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-08-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 01:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Doesn't Y also have a complete and total lack of evidence? And if so, wouldn't it be eliminated as well because of this?

That's like saying atheism has a complete and total lack of evidence. Atheists don't need evidence there is no God, they need evidence there is (as should any rational mind). As long as physics continues to describe the universe solely in terms of natural laws there is no reason to introduce a designer or intentionality. Just muddies the water with an additional completely unnecessary assumption which adds absolutely nothing to the explanation. Occam would not be pleased.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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10-08-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 01:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 01:48 PM)Free Wrote:  2. X- Intentionality- is eliminated because of a complete and total lack of evidence.

3. Y - Unintentionality- stands alone as the only other available option.


Doesn't Y also have a complete and total lack of evidence? And if so, wouldn't it be eliminated as well because of this?

Would you consider the possibility that you may be confusing two things here?

When you think of Intentionality, you may envision a being such as God/Creator. Therefore, you envision an identified existence.

But Unintentionality is unknown, and therefore we cannot assign an existence to something that is unknown, and hence, can not provide any evidence of an unknown. It is not an identified existence.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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