Why I'm a Theist
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11-08-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 08:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 06:57 AM)unfogged Wrote:  To be fair, "those things" is referring to cars and laptops. His argument is still specious but I think you misread that sentence.

Yeah, I misread the sentence. It was 10:30PM+ after a long day.

I read it the same way you did, except since he was also talking about how the universe works, I included the universe among "those things:"

Quote:No one denies it operates under the laws of physics just as a car or a laptop does but we know those things were caused by plan and design.

If his intention was otherwise, his ambiguity masks it rather well.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-08-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(10-08-2015 02:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  As long as physics continues to describe the universe solely in terms of natural laws there is no reason to introduce a designer or intentionality.

Physics neither needs to assume intentionality or unintentionality.

In the same way an engineer can describe how a smart phone works, how it's physical properties interact with each other, without ever saying anything about it being intentionally created or not.
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11-08-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 09:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 02:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  As long as physics continues to describe the universe solely in terms of natural laws there is no reason to introduce a designer or intentionality.

Physics neither needs to assume intentionality or unintentionality.

Nor do any of the hard sciences.

Quote:In the same way an engineer can describe how a smart phone works, how it's physical properties interact with each other, without ever saying anything about it being intentionally created or not.

Not really. How a smart phone works is a product of intention. Every part and function has a purpose. A description of its workings without referring to the reason for the function will not succeed at describing how it works.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-08-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not really. How a smart phone works is a product of intention. Every part and function has a purpose. A description of its workings without referring to the reason for the function will not succeed at describing how it works.


You can speak of it's functions, what purpose they serve, the same way we do in regards to biological parts, like the heart, etc...
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11-08-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 10:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 09:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not really. How a smart phone works is a product of intention. Every part and function has a purpose. A description of its workings without referring to the reason for the function will not succeed at describing how it works.


You can speak of it's functions, what purpose they serve, the same way we do in regards to biological parts, like the heart, etc...

Not really. We know the smart phone was designed and that changes the approach.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-08-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not really. We know the smart phone was designed and that changes the approach.

Not really. Reverse engineering is reverse engineering. A person could believe it was not designed, and yet reach the same conclusion on how the various parts of phone interact with each other.
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11-08-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not really. We know the smart phone was designed and that changes the approach.

Not really. Reverse engineering is reverse engineering. A person could believe it was not designed, and yet reach the same conclusion on how the various parts of phone interact with each other.

Maybe how they interact with each other, but not why they're there in the first place or what their purposes are.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-08-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe how they interact with each other, but not why they're there in the first place or what their purposes are.

We can describe how they function, what the results of those functions are and what those functions produce. Or in other words we can basically speak of the smart phone's functions, the roles of it physical parts, the way we can speak of the functions of biological parts, and their roles.

You can ask a question regarding what's the origin of the phone? Was it created with some teleological purpose? I can respond that the questions are relevant for my endeavor to describe it's functions, and those roles those functions in the inner workings of the smartphone.
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11-08-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 11:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe how they interact with each other, but not why they're there in the first place or what their purposes are.

We can describe how they function, what the results of those functions are and what those functions produce. Or in other words we can basically speak of the smart phone's functions, the roles of it physical parts, the way we can speak of the functions of biological parts, and their roles.

You can ask a question regarding what's the origin of the phone? Was it created with some teleological purpose? I can respond that the questions are relevant for my endeavor to describe it's functions, and those roles those functions in the inner workings of the smartphone.

Yes, but we all know the phone was created, and we can find out who created it.

The universe simply doesn't work that way. In fact, some things are completely counter-intuitive and boggle the mind.

Take "negative mass" for example. Could you imagine placing negative mass on a weigh scale and watch how the scale goes below zero into a negative number?

Mathematically, negative mass can be demonstrated as not violating any natural laws. Yet there it is, being demonstrated as being less than nothing.

Tomasia, not all things make sense. Things are being discovered almost daily that boggle the mind. The universe is largely unknown, and we may never unlock all of it's secrets.

I find the universe itself to be far more realistic than any belief in any deity ever could be. At least with the universe we can begin to learn about it, where with any deity that we cannot see, touch, or observe in any way, we cannot learn anything about.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-08-2015, 06:26 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(11-08-2015 02:13 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, but we all know the phone was created, and we can find out who created it.

Yes, but that knowledge is not needed, so someone who didn't know it was created, would still be able to describe it's functions, and the interactions of it's various parts, just like scientist do with biological entities.

Quote:The universe simply doesn't work that way. In fact, some things are completely counter-intuitive and boggle the mind.

I'm not sure what appealing to counter-intuition here is about? Are you suggesting that the human existence, that universe was product of a cosmic accident, a fluke, while true, is counter-intuitive?

If so, what would be the false intuitive assumption?

Quote:I find the universe itself to be far more realistic than any belief in any deity ever could be. At least with the universe we can begin to learn about it, where with any deity that we cannot see, touch, or observe in any way, we cannot learn anything about.

Except of course in what he reveals in his work. The question of God is more about the story, than the author.
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