Why I'm a Theist
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23-07-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 08:02 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 07:53 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  You're essentially asking for a free pulpit from which to preach without any dissenting opinions sharing the limelight. If you wanted to be owed an opportunity to persuade observers to your way of thinking unmolested by countering arguments, you should have realized an atheist forum wasn't the right place to do it.

Dissent all you want, make your counter points and rebut everything I say but you don't have to also tell me my argument didn't persuade you...I know that already. The point of a debate is to persuade the unpersuaded not the folks I'm debating.

Nothing that you have presented so far constitutes evidence. You have merely made weak arguments that reflect a lack of logical thinking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-07-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 07:28 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Some perspective on abiogenesis. Lets grant for a moment that chemical processes may account for it occurring. A myriad of other conditions have to obtain before that is possible. Its an assumption among atheists for sure but scientists also (most of whom are atheists) that life must be relatively simple to occur. After all it didn't occur intentionally so it must be relatively simple. Yet highly motivated scientists (using intelligence) have been unable to duplicate the conditions alleged to have arisen by a chance process. We can't even make it happen by intentionally trying to make it happen.

Nope. All wrong. Once the chemical processes had begun, the next step is far more probable. There is no reason it *had* to be simple. Highly improbable single events happen all the time.

There is no absolute boundary between life and non-life.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-07-2015, 09:17 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 09:20 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Why I'm a Theist
It never ceases to amaze me that they expect scientists to demonstrate, in an Erlenmeyer flask, an entire process that clearly took millions of years. Indeed, it's quite surprising we know as much as we do, given the fact that we're trying to reconstruct a process that has been hidden by four billion years of subsequent evolutionary change. The degree of complexity required for abiogenesis chemistry to occur is irrelevant, since we know it did occur, and it's obvious from our initial experiments that the problem is not that we don't know how it could have happened, but that there are so many possible routes that pinning down the route by which it did happen (the first step in trying to prove it entirely) is going to be a long process of elimination. As said above, the universe had hundreds of millions of years to get this right, over the surface (probably near geothermal vents, but still larger area/volume than a test tube/flask) of the planet. That's assuming it didn't start in interstellar ice crystals, as appears may be the case, and crash down into our oceans to start dividing into naturally-forming protocells. There are mechanisms that need to be discovered to make the transition from protocells to fully-functional prokaryotic cells, but we have to walk before we can run, and there's still nothing in there that even remotely suggests that god had to reach down and "stick her fingers in the soup" to make it happen.

I cannot name a chemical/atomic process that is anything but mindless. They're not only mindless, they're predictably so, which is why we can teach chemistry in a classroom, expecting students to memorize the regularity of how it occurs. Of course, we do select which of these mindless processes we wish to cause to happen in an experiment, by setting up the conditions in the test tubes by which they happen, but the first thing you learn in Chemistry 101 is how the physics of elements causes them to bond on their own. We don't go "pushing" elements together mechanically. No gods required.

Astrophysics is the science of putting together the mathematics of how natural processes alone DO cause all the things we observe happening, from planetary and stellar formation to fusion to the prebiotic chemistry we can observe out in the stellar nebulae via radio telescope. Again, no gods involved here, just gravity and chemistry. The discoveries of the LHC at CERN show that even gravity is an emergent property of matter (the Higgs boson), and that the physical properties of elements (and how they bond) are determined by the subatomic particles' natural interactions. Again, no god there.

The idea that the world operates by magic is a dying one, and I'm sorry that you feel the need to cling to it emotionally... but it is the abandonment of the notion of magical forces that let us figure out that disease is caused by tiny creatures (Germ Theory), not by demons or "bad spirits" or other hocus pocus.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 08:18 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 07:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It ebbs and flows.

I'm not worried. Eventually they'll break a rule or reveal their sockiness and then they'll be banned.
...don't you want debate? I ran a forum for a while and as an administrator I wanted lively debate. The name of the forum is Real life debates with theists but you would prefer theists didn't post?

But you're not looking for debate. You're looking to pontificate with illogical arguments. You said it yourself, you don't expect your arguments to persuade atheists, you're looking to convince the fence-sitters that you are right. But you seem disinterested in what atheists have to say and refuse to admit when you have holes in your arguments. How can there be a debate for fence-sitters to appreciate if you refuse to acknowledge the problems with your statements?

And finally, if you are merely a deist, as your résumé seems to indicate, why do you give a shit if fence-sitters fall on your side of this equation? What's the point of a deist even having any thoughts on this matter anyway? You're irrelevance is only paled by your ignorance.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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23-07-2015, 09:49 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
WillHop -

That is, near as I can tell, all Creationists do: try to make an argument "good-enough" to fool people who are neutral and who don't know enough science on their own to spot arguments that are BS but sound reasonable to a layperson.

One example is the "information" argument, where they brazenly assert that "information cannot increase", usually followed by an even worse strawman mis-statement of how DNA works and what we know about it. Like the work with homeotic genes which, by a very small change in expression of proteins or the code itself can greatly alter the rest of the genome. It's not a 1-to-1 thing, but they insist on pretending it is, like we discovered nothing in the Human Genome Project 15 years ago, and nothing since. We know a ~1,000 gene toolkit found in every vertebrate which is responsible for body formation, shaping the folding not only of proteins but of tissue layers as they form. We know the function of a gene can be altered, without coding for any "miraculous new proteins", simply by altering supportive genetic materials (hox genes) that control gene function. You can find a ton of examples in the "Evo-Devo" stuff that has been done in the last couple years (making chicken grow teeth, scales, tails, et cetera.). Yet they still insist that their strawman version is reality! It's fundamental dishonesty, but it sounds good to the layperson, so they use it. Anything in the service of the Lawd, right?

So, Mr. Theist, if you want to get up to speed on the latest science has to offer, rather than stating BLATANTLY incorrect information from Creationist propaganda sites, you are welcome to have a real discussion with us. I'd love it!

Unfortunately, having seen your last debate, you want to grandstand like a lawyer trying to fool a jury into convicting an innocent man. It happens all the time. Why? Because courtrooms don't use the scientific method's self-correction apparatus, they just try to fool 12 people into believing a good-sounding argument, one way or another. It's how this kind of thing happens:

Michael Morton Goes Free After Nearly 25 Years in Prison, Exonerated by DNA Evidence for His Wife's Murder

A jury trial (courtroom) put that man in prison by "convincing" people. Science freed him.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-morton-...d=14663445

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 03:36 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  What if there wasn't only a universe but one which appeared to have rules of behavior imposed on it so that it caused stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets to exist. I'd have at least a factual basis to conjecture that an engineer of some sort was involved. The loyal opposition would then point out why would an engineer create a universe with no purpose? Just planets and stars running around. What if the universe not only had stars and planets but also had sentient life? The slogan there is no evidence in favor of theism is just that... a baseless slogan.
In order for something to be considered evidence for a hypothesis it must support one hypothesis over another.
For example,
In a murder case there are two suspects A and B.
The victum was murdered with a gun.
Lawyer X is proposing that suspect A is the murderer and presents as evidence that suspect A possesses a gun.
Lawyer Y is proposing that suspect B is the murderer and presents as evidence that suspect B possesses a gun.
So can we consider possession of a gun as evidence that suspect A committed the crime?
A: No we can't because it doesn't favour Lawyer X's case more than Laywer Y's case.

Now for you to claim that existence of a seemingly ordered universe (including life) is evidence for a creator god you would then also need to show why that evidence supports a creator god more so than a natural process.
All of our recorded scientific observations of the universe show natural forces operating autonomously. There isn't one observation known to have occured in a supernatural fashion. This means that supernatural events are unprecedented whereas natural events are observed all the time. To demand that the begining of the universe was a supernatural event is special pleading.
To argue that an organised universe can't happen naturally denies all known cosmology. Cosmologists have scientific and mathematical models which map out the lifecycle of our universe going all the way back to just a few sub-seconds after the big bang event. Now this isn't saying that they are correct, but it does show (as far as scientists know) that an ordered universe can form from natural processes. Evolution explains the abundance, diversity and complexity of life via a natural process. It doesn't explain abogenesis which still remains a mystery ripe for further scientific discovery.

Science isn't attempting to disprove a supernatural hypothesis. Science is focussing on a natural hypothesis because natural lends itself towards a consistent and objective discovery process whereas supernatural hypthesis do not. Science has made a remarkable amount of discoveries without ever having to appeal to supernatural intervention. The day we start appealing to supernatural causes is the day we stop doing science, the day we start voting on explainations rather than discovering them.
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23-07-2015, 11:52 PM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 09:49 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's how this kind of thing happens:

Michael Morton Goes Free After Nearly 25 Years in Prison, Exonerated by DNA Evidence for His Wife's Murder

A jury trial (courtroom) put that man in prison by "convincing" people. Science freed him.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-morton-...d=14663445

Quote:His mother, Pat Morton, told the Austin American-Statesman, "This is one of the happiest days of my life, and I thank God for it."

WTF was her god doing for 25 years?

Why did it take a nudge from Science and The Innocence Project before her god got his arse in gear?

Maybe he was still tired after creating the universe?

Dodgy

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24-07-2015, 12:14 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 06:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 05:11 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  This is a good example of the kind of one sentence no substance response that I will ignore...

And yet you didn't.

(23-07-2015 05:08 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  I won't respond to one liners or personal attacks (so far everyone seems civil) thoughtful replies will get the most attention.

I think you should devote your attention to WhiskeyDebates. He's in charge of the welcoming committee for your ilk. He has hugs and kisses and flowers and chocolates and massages and shit for newbies like you. You'll like him. He's a nice guy.
New meat? ........where?
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24-07-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 08:18 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 07:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It ebbs and flows.

I'm not worried. Eventually they'll break a rule or reveal their sockiness and then they'll be banned.

I don't get this sentiment...don't you want debate? I ran a forum for a while and as an administrator I wanted lively debate. The name of the forum is Real life debates with theists but you would prefer theists didn't post?

Try reading a few other threads in this section and see if you can figure out why you are in the wrong section of the forum. I even gave you a hint.Thumbsup

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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24-07-2015, 12:33 AM
RE: Why I'm a Theist
(23-07-2015 08:18 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 07:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It ebbs and flows.

I'm not worried. Eventually they'll break a rule or reveal their sockiness and then they'll be banned.

I don't get this sentiment...don't you want debate? I ran a forum for a while and as an administrator I wanted lively debate. The name of the forum is Real life debates with theists but you would prefer theists didn't post?

This is no debate; you've offered nothing worthy of debate. You've stated nothing but opinion and horrible conjecture.

You've come here saying you're a theist on our atheist forum looking for debate but haven't offered anything worth discussing. What's been offered by you is an embarrassment.

So don't take a huge shit on the floor and try to pass it off as pudding.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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