Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-12-2015, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2015 03:25 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:30 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

The Bible has:

A talking snake and a talking donkey.
Adam and Eve being born of dust/rib--when evidence of how humans came to be tells otherwise.
Stories of a great worldwide flood with no scientific evidence that one ever occurred.
A God writing through people into a magical book.
A God that no one has ever truly seen with their own eyes.
Similar stories and myths such as Moses and Sargon.
Prayer that doesn't work.
Circumcision as a pact with God (something that was already going on in other cultures in that area, so it really wasn't anything noteworthy).
A myriad of laws that are very similar to those of other nearby cultures who believed in other gods.
An explanation of how animals become speckled/spotted--they do this by looking at a speckled or spotted rod while getting it on.
Archaic ideas on menstruation and women--which reflected the cultures of the time.
Sacrifice of animals--again nothing special--was going on in other places to other gods. This should illustrate to you that it was a learned custom and not a god expected one.
A demigod (i.e. Jesus) who practiced "miracles"--something that others were doing around this time as well, again nothing noteworthy. Jesus just happened to become legend.

And this is the short list. The list goes on and on as to why Christianity does not stand up beyond faith.

Let me add to your list jennybee:

Sanctioned rape, murder & slavery. (These alone really should be enough).
A guy with supernatural strength because of his long hair.
A burning bush that speaks.
Bats classified as birds.
People being turned into salt.
Seas being parted.
Walking on water.
Mysogyny on nearly every page.
A bullshit explanation for how languages came to be (Babel).
A bullshit explanation on how the Universe, the Earth and life came to be.
A god powerless against iron chariots.
A jealous, infantile, cruel god that can’t control its temper.

passes baton...

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Full Circle's post
22-12-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  When examined, Christian theology fails every time. It is nonsense.

To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

Not exactly. What it does say, is that you are totally ignorant of the roots of Christianity.

What are you doing here ? You failed to answer that last time I asked.

The fact is, the "problem with hell" (well one of them, besides the complete idiocy of "suffering" and "transitioning to" in a timeless environment) is that it is a TOTALLY non-Biblical concept. The Hebrews never believed in hell, in classical Judaism. In fact, until after the Exile, they didn't even buy into personal/individual immortality. St. Paul says that ONLY the saved are immortal, so he would never agree with the Augustinian-Thomistic bullshit of "hell", which basically arose AFTER Judaism came into contact with the Greek culture and Hades was over-laid onto Sheol. Sheol, (in the Bible) was where ALL souls went. It was not where Yahweh lived.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"


The fact is, most Christians, (not unlike Tommy-boy, our resident Christian poo-slinger), actually know NOTHING about the roots and developmental history of their cult and it's concepts.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
22-12-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  When examined, Christian theology fails every time. It is nonsense.

To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

Are you trying to say something in favor of Christian Theology? If so why not come out and say it? If there is sometime good to be said about Christian Theology hit us with it!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DerFish's post
22-12-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:02 AM)DerFish Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

Are you trying to say something in favor of Christian Theology? If so why not come out and say it? If there is sometime good to be said about Christian Theology hit us with it!

Oh jeebus, you just opened a can of worms Facepalm

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
22-12-2015, 09:04 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:08 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Whut? I guess that's your interpretation, the book of Job was about god basically saying- who are you to question god?

BTW- God refuses to tell Job the truth- that God was in a dick-waving contest with the devil and that was why everything happened to him.

God is primarily a side character in the story. The character of Job has no understanding of his suffering, but he rejects the main perceptions of suffering among his peers, and among the community in which it's being written for, who interpret suffering as God's punishment, and Job rejects this view, and the writer closes the book with the question left open.

The hall mark of Jewish history, jewish scriptures, of even the very name Isreal, is this constant struggle with God, the requisitioning of old wisdom, to reimagine a tribal God of the Hebrews, as the only God of humanity. Those who don't understand, really haven't read the bible in any meaningful way at all.

The bible certainly contains the notion of God deliberately causing suffering, so that interpretation is wrong. The book of Job is all over the map on the source of suffering, it has Lucifer causing it, but with God's approval.

So the chuckle heads are in collusion against humanity, depending on whether they have a bet with each other.

And then God makes a lie of omission in not telling Job about his little wager with Lucifer at Job's expense.

The book of Job is a damning story about the nature of this god concept.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheInquisition's post
22-12-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:48 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  God is primarily a side character in the story. The character of Job has no understanding of his suffering, but he rejects the main perceptions of suffering among his peers, and among the community in which it's being written for, who interpret suffering as God's punishment, and Job rejects this view, and the writer closes the book with the question left open.

The hall mark of Jewish history, jewish scriptures, of even the very name Isreal, is this constant struggle with God, the requisitioning of old wisdom, to reimagine a tribal God of the Hebrews, as the only God of humanity. Those who don't understand, really haven't read the bible in any meaningful way at all.

So you are agreeing the Bible is an imagined creation of the Jewish people?

He's just not a literalist who will state it's not relevant to what anything the real god thinks, it was just what they at the time believed. Yet he will take that most of that stuff is not accurate yet Jesus being a prophet or real godly entity bit is somehow still true, and not something just as likely skewed from people trying to understand things they had no understanding of.

It sure has eventually become far more challenged than it had been for a good thousand years, but it's still ingrained to lots of people because it says & they're taught to not challenge it constantly. At least in countries where it is the main controlling force, maybe Tomasia didn't experience that type of way that Christianity is expressed to people in his upbringing. But Christianity over something like Taoism certainly isnt supportive of questioning your path beside it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-12-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:48 AM)jennybee Wrote:  So you are agreeing the Bible is an imagined creation of the Jewish people?

I believe what mostly every other historic christian tradition believes in regards to the bible, outside of fundie evangelicals. I read the Bible, just like I do novels, and other literature, whose depth and meanings are part of communal interpretations, and often quite deeper then what you scratch at the surface.

When I was a child reading the stories of the Garden of Eden, of Noah, of Samson, I read them with the same eagerness in which I read greek myths, and stories. No one discouraged me from doing so, but then again I didn't grow up in your church.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Tomasia's post
22-12-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:04 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  God is primarily a side character in the story. The character of Job has no understanding of his suffering, but he rejects the main perceptions of suffering among his peers, and among the community in which it's being written for, who interpret suffering as God's punishment, and Job rejects this view, and the writer closes the book with the question left open.

The hall mark of Jewish history, jewish scriptures, of even the very name Isreal, is this constant struggle with God, the requisitioning of old wisdom, to reimagine a tribal God of the Hebrews, as the only God of humanity. Those who don't understand, really haven't read the bible in any meaningful way at all.

The bible certainly contains the notion of God deliberately causing suffering, so that interpretation is wrong. The book of Job is all over the map on suffering, it has Lucifer causing it, but with God's approval.

So the chuckle heads are in collusion against humanity, depending on whether they have a bet with each other.

And then God makes a lie of omission in not telling Job about his little wager with Lucifer.

The book of Job is a damning story about the nature of this god concept.

Agreed. The Book of Job is an explanation as to why bad things happen to good people. It's objective is to explain that as mere humans we don't understand God's ways, everything He does He does for a reason, reasons known only to Him. Who are we, mere mortals, to question a being who is all-powerful? My favorite part: Only God knows where the light i.e. the sun goes (which apparently He thought passed through the underworld as did most of the people at this time.)

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
22-12-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:04 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The bible certainly contains the notion of God deliberately causing suffering, so that interpretation is wrong. The book of Job is all over the map on the source of suffering, it has Lucifer causing it, but with God's approval.

So the chuckle heads are in collusion against humanity, depending on whether they have a bet with each other.

And then God makes a lie of omission in not telling Job about his little wager with Lucifer at Job's expense.

The book of Job is a damning story about the nature of this god concept.

The story of what takes place between God and Lucifer is entirely irrelevant to the question of Job, it's just a prop in the narrative. Job knows nothing of these things, and in fact when God appears to him in the closing of the narrative all that remains a mystery to Job, and it's this God who responds to him with a non-answer.

It wasn't the writers way of trying to give his audience an answer to the question of suffering, that Job is excluded from knowing. But places both the reader and Job in the same predicament, rejecting the old understanding, for one that leaves us in the dark.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-12-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:48 AM)jennybee Wrote:  So you are agreeing the Bible is an imagined creation of the Jewish people?

I believe what mostly every other historic christian tradition believes in regards to the bible, outside of fundie evangelicals. I read the Bible, just like I do novels, and other literature, whose depth and meanings are part of communal interpretations, and often quite deeper then what you scratch at the surface.

When I was a child reading the stories of the Garden of Eden, of Noah, of Samson, I read them with the same eagerness in which I read greek myths, and stories. No one discouraged me from doing so, but then again I didn't grow up in your church.

Good for you. Nice try. Fail.
Every Christian, including most well-known scholars, all have their own personal opinions on virtually every subject. There really is no such thing as "orthodoxy" on any subject.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: