Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
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22-12-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:41 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 09:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No it leaves the reader entirely in dark. No one particularly reading it imagines that their suffering is a product of a wager between the God and Lucifer. It leaves the answer to suffering as an entirely incomprehensible one. God gives no answer to the pleading Job, he renews and redeems his life, but leaves the heart of the central question unanswered.


The OT writers were hardly prone to use the character of God in a positive spin, when he floods the world in Genesis, the character of God is left recognizing that it was all a mistake, that his attempt to rid evil from humanity was futile. This character becomes remorseful and repents of his very action. Their God character is often portrayed as very human like, prone to propensities and vanities of human beings, though none of them likely believed that God was like this at all.

What makes you say such things? I don't get some of the conclusions you want to just make in this thread. Like this, and comparing how Christianity doesn't have a don't question it nature to it because your experience was different which wasn't related to being taught the doctrine in a way the religion is largely is spread.

To the main first point, if you were reading the ideas of Christianity as a kid next to mythology, there wasn't much any difference. The difference is whether the religion is dead or not. Do you think the Greeks, Egyptians, Norse, Canaanites, Hindus, african trbies, american tribes, etc. believed their gods not to be the humanistic beings they portrayed them as in their legends? That's more what was the norm. & still was the case for early Hebrew believe, that's where EL & Ashura have their origins from along with the rest. Plus a book like JOB is considered the earliest and it's a story past down before they moved more to their monotheistic view of there being 1 true God. Some of these religions had a prime God but still mostly there was a lot of humanistic qualities including faults.

It's why it's clear to most reading the OT that the described God doesn't fit the philosophical "classical god" traits omni-qualities.

I was about 12 years old when I said to my sister about religion and our parents "Do you think they really believe this stuff?"
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22-12-2015, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2015 10:08 AM by jennybee.)
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 09:20 AM)jennybee Wrote:  But Job 38 does give an explanation. The explanation is not to question. It's very clear that is what God is saying when he is talking to Job in that passage.

God is talking to no one. The authors are putting words (their own ideas) in his mouth. It's called a "literary device".

There is no "person" named *Lucifer* in the Bible. It's actually a rather poetic term. It means something like the "daystar".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Agreed re: "the satan." I'm referring to Job 38 where God and Job are "talking." It's classified as "wisdom literature." I do think there are many interpretations to Job, but I like scholar Christine Hayes' take on it (at around the 25:00 mark).




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22-12-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  When examined, Christian theology fails every time. It is nonsense.

To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

It says that I am rational. You, on the other hand, are not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-12-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:41 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What makes you say such things? I don't get some of the conclusions you want to just make in this thread. Like this, and comparing how Christianity doesn't have a don't question it nature to it because your experience was different which wasn't related to being taught the doctrine in a way the religion is largely is spread.

Well, clearly my experience was different, even though I was born into an evangelical Christian denomination, pentecostalism. Even though like others here, I grew up in a conservative evangelical sect, our experiences are often dramatically different, and possibly because the experiences of those who grow up on the white side of the Christian tradition, and the histories connected to it, are distinct from those
who didn't.

While they may be able speak of one particular slice of the Christian tradition, unique to their own experiences, they can say every little about anything outside of their particular slice of the pie. In fact for the most part the seem entirely alien to it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-12-2015, 11:30 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  It says that I am rational. You, on the other hand, are not.

If we took the same courses in school, and received comparable grades, did equally as well on test that gauged our knowledge and understanding of the material. Would that falsify your conclusion?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-12-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  It says that I am rational. You, on the other hand, are not.

If we took the same courses in school, and received comparable grades, did equally as well on test that gauged our knowledge and understanding of the material. Would that falsify your conclusion?

No. You are not rational on the subject of religion, therefore not rational on the subject of the nature of reality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-12-2015, 11:41 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  It says that I am rational. You, on the other hand, are not.

If we took the same courses in school, and received comparable grades, did equally as well on test that gauged our knowledge and understanding of the material. Would that falsify your conclusion?

Your opinion on reality makes it clear that no, this would not falsify this conclusion. You do not view religion objectively and give it special preference, making your bias insurmountable in a rational discussion.

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22-12-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 05:09 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Science is not a religion, it is a tool and it does not, nor ever will prop up any religion or any god claim. Science is completely independent of religion. It is why a computer works in Japan and in North Korea and in Iran and in Mexico and in Canada. It is why a cell phone works and why we have doctors and why we have put humans on the moon and probes on Mars.

Science also explain why people get sick and how medicine cures people. Where as religions like Christianity, Judaism, and others tell you superstitious things like plagues are god's wrath and killing birds and sprinkling their blood onto something will cure the plagues.

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22-12-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. You are not rational on the subject of religion, therefore not rational on the subject of the nature of reality.

If there was courses on religion, and test that gauged our understanding of the material, and we scored equally well, would that falsify your conclusion that I'm not rational on the subject?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-12-2015, 12:14 PM
Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 11:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. You are not rational on the subject of religion, therefore not rational on the subject of the nature of reality.

If there was courses on religion, and test that gauged our understanding of the material, and we scored equally well, would that falsify your conclusion that I'm not rational on the subject?

No. Memorizing material says nothing about one's intelligence or ability to critically think and evaluate information. The fact that you could spout off a plethora of religious bullshit and the corresponding scripture, means only that you know how to memorize bullshit.

The way you engage with others on this forum, makes it clear that you don't think critically or skeptically. Especially with regards to your own religious bullshit. Hence, the reason your bias makes any intelligent conversation with you doomed from the start. Your theistic dishonesty is deeply rooted. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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