Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
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23-12-2015, 01:34 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  When examined, Christian theology fails every time. It is nonsense.

To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

No. Chas is smart. So am I. Christian theology is nonsense. All of it.
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23-12-2015, 01:43 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 02:26 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:30 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To you of course it does. But this tends to say more about you then Christian theology.

The Bible has:

A talking snake and a talking donkey.
Adam and Eve being born of dust/rib--when evidence of how humans came to be tells otherwise.
Stories of a great worldwide flood with no scientific evidence that one ever occurred.
A God writing through people into a magical book.
A God that no one has ever truly seen with their own eyes.
Similar stories and myths such as Moses and Sargon.
Prayer that doesn't work.
Circumcision as a pact with God (something that was already going on in other cultures in that area, so it really wasn't anything noteworthy).
A myriad of laws that are very similar to those of other nearby cultures who believed in other gods.
An explanation of how animals become speckled/spotted--they do this by looking at a speckled or spotted rod while getting it on.
Archaic ideas on menstruation and women--which reflected the cultures of the time.
Sacrifice of animals--again nothing special--was going on in other places to other gods. This should illustrate to you that it was a learned custom and not a god expected one.
A demigod (i.e. Jesus) who practiced "miracles"--something that others were doing around this time as well, again nothing noteworthy. Jesus just happened to become legend.

And this is the short list. The list goes on and on as to why Christianity does not stand up beyond faith.

New International Version
"Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and it said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"" (Numbers 22;28)

A talking donkey! Thanks for sharing.

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23-12-2015, 01:59 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 02:11 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 08:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:08 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Whut? I guess that's your interpretation, the book of Job was about god basically saying- who are you to question god?

BTW- God refuses to tell Job the truth- that God was in a dick-waving contest with the devil and that was why everything happened to him.

God is primarily a side character in the story. The character of Job has no understanding of his suffering, but he rejects the main perceptions of suffering among his peers, and among the community in which it's being written for, who interpret suffering as God's punishment, and Job rejects this view, and the writer closes the book with the question left open.

The hall mark of Jewish history, jewish scriptures, of even the very name Isreal, is this constant struggle with God, the requisitioning of old wisdom, to reimagine a tribal God of the Hebrews, as the only God of humanity. Those who don't understand, really haven't read the bible in any meaningful way at all.

"God is primarily a side character in the story."

Mmmmmm. The creator of the entire universe only makes a cameo appearance in this wonderful literature? Sounds legit Facepalm

"Those who don't understand, really haven't read the bible in any meaningful way at all."

Of course! All is revealed! Now I understand. I'm the dumb fuck for not getting it that the ancient Jews think their sky daddy is everyone's sky daddy. If only I had read this utter crap in a "meaningful way" I would get it. I've been so stupid. Please, please, tell me more...I'm obviously so ignorant and out of touch...
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23-12-2015, 02:10 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 09:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 09:04 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The bible certainly contains the notion of God deliberately causing suffering, so that interpretation is wrong. The book of Job is all over the map on the source of suffering, it has Lucifer causing it, but with God's approval.

So the chuckle heads are in collusion against humanity, depending on whether they have a bet with each other.

And then God makes a lie of omission in not telling Job about his little wager with Lucifer at Job's expense.

The book of Job is a damning story about the nature of this god concept.

The story of what takes place between God and Lucifer is entirely irrelevant to the question of Job, it's just a prop in the narrative. Job knows nothing of these things, and in fact when God appears to him in the closing of the narrative all that remains a mystery to Job, and it's this God who responds to him with a non-answer.

It wasn't the writers way of trying to give his audience an answer to the question of suffering, that Job is excluded from knowing. But places both the reader and Job in the same predicament, rejecting the old understanding, for one that leaves us in the dark.

"It wasn't the writers way of trying to give his audience an answer to the question of suffering, that Job is excluded from knowing. But places both the reader and Job in the same predicament, rejecting the old understanding, for one that leaves us in the dark."

I challenge all the grammar police, and any English teachers, or even anyone who has smoked half a joint, to make sense of the above. If you can, please share your conclusion.
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23-12-2015, 02:25 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 03:04 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 11:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. You are not rational on the subject of religion, therefore not rational on the subject of the nature of reality.

If there was courses on religion, and test that gauged our understanding of the material, and we scored equally well, would that falsify your conclusion that I'm not rational on the subject?

If there was courses on religion, and test that gauged our understanding of the material, and we scored equally well, would that falsify your conclusion that I'm not rational on the subject?

How about we consider the topic of grammar?

If you were half as intelligent and half as well read as you think you are, you would be competent at constructing a sentence in English that read well.
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23-12-2015, 02:46 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 01:20 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You are a memorizer of religious doctrine with an inability to critically think.

Ah okay, so I'm a memorizer of religious doctrine, while you and other atheists here understand religious doctrine?

Can you provide an example of a religious doctrine your understand, that I don't?

"Can you provide an example of a religious doctrine your understand, that I don't?"

First you must explain what your mean...I'm a little confused.
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23-12-2015, 04:20 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(23-12-2015 01:43 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 08:30 AM)jennybee Wrote:  The Bible has:

A talking snake and a talking donkey.
Adam and Eve being born of dust/rib--when evidence of how humans came to be tells otherwise.
Stories of a great worldwide flood with no scientific evidence that one ever occurred.
A God writing through people into a magical book.
A God that no one has ever truly seen with their own eyes.
Similar stories and myths such as Moses and Sargon.
Prayer that doesn't work.
Circumcision as a pact with God (something that was already going on in other cultures in that area, so it really wasn't anything noteworthy).
A myriad of laws that are very similar to those of other nearby cultures who believed in other gods.
An explanation of how animals become speckled/spotted--they do this by looking at a speckled or spotted rod while getting it on.
Archaic ideas on menstruation and women--which reflected the cultures of the time.
Sacrifice of animals--again nothing special--was going on in other places to other gods. This should illustrate to you that it was a learned custom and not a god expected one.
A demigod (i.e. Jesus) who practiced "miracles"--something that others were doing around this time as well, again nothing noteworthy. Jesus just happened to become legend.

And this is the short list. The list goes on and on as to why Christianity does not stand up beyond faith.

New International Version
"Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and it said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"" (Numbers 22;28)

A talking donkey! Thanks for sharing.
The Donkey that talks to him as if it's an abused wife by him too.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-12-2015, 07:30 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 11:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. You are not rational on the subject of religion, therefore not rational on the subject of the nature of reality.

If there was courses on religion, and test that gauged our understanding of the material, and we scored equally well, would that falsify your conclusion that I'm not rational on the subject?

There are courses studying fairy tales at the college level in some universities. Studying them and passing a test on them does not make the three little pigs nor the big bad wolf reality.
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23-12-2015, 07:42 AM
RE: Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 04:03 AM)Sylia Gray Wrote:  there is this magical Jewish sky wizard called "Yahweh" who fucked some poor virgin teenager (isn't this rape, by the way?)

There was no insertion. The Holy Spirit "came upon" Mary, which got her pregnant. The Bible is pretty explicit about this. Tongue


(22-12-2015 04:03 AM)Sylia Gray Wrote:  The God of the bible would have to be, by definition, an idiot because for an all powerful god, there would have to be a much better way to fix the world that he himself fucked up and blames us for, without thousands of years of all this drama.

From what the apologists say, YHWH loves to sandbag. A lot. For mysterious reasons.

Personally, it reminds me a lot of a cat playing with torturing a mouse for a while before ultimately killing it. It also reminds me a lot of those kids on the playground who claimed to be able to fly (or do whatever), but refused to show me.


(22-12-2015 04:03 AM)Sylia Gray Wrote:  (1) It discourages questioning its doctrine because it is claimed that their scripture is the word of God. (Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Luke 4:12)

It doesn't have to, but it can.


(22-12-2015 04:03 AM)Sylia Gray Wrote:  (2) It lacks evidence. And any evidence brought up by apologists is dubious and often packaged with hackneyed arguments that have debunked over and over again.

That's not just a problem of hell. That runs through pretty much all of Christianity.


(22-12-2015 04:03 AM)Sylia Gray Wrote:  (3) According to Christian doctrines, it doesn't matter whether you, as a nonbeliever, were good or bad during your lifetime. If you don't believe in Christianity, then it's "Fuck you! Go to Hell!" And that's the bottom line.

Yeah, that is a big problem with their punishment/reward system. It incentivizes swearing the correct oath of fealty, not actually taking morally correct actions.


(22-12-2015 04:03 AM)Sylia Gray Wrote:  In conclusion, Christianity is NOT the absolute truth. It's not even just simply the truth because it's an idea that fails to stand on its own with no genuine solid evidence to support it. It discourages people from questioning its doctrines (because then you'd be testing their God). Instead of being backed by solid evidence, nonbeliever are threatened with eternal damnation if they don't believe by faith. If Christianity is absolute truth, why does it rely on fear tactics to get people to believe instead of relying on convincing evidence. And where are all of its supporting evidence outside the Bible? This can't be truth. It's ludicrous!

Hell in and of itself doesn't disprove Christianity. It just shows that their god is a lot more cruel and vindictive than they want to admit he is. This is why a bunch of Christians (my wife, included) don't believe in hell. It's way easier to dump that baggage than to try and reconcile it. The existence of hell was one major factor leading to me ultimately rejecting Christianity, too.
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23-12-2015, 03:40 PM
Why I think the doctrine of Hell is problematic for Christianity
(22-12-2015 03:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Tomasia, do you ever find it odd that no one here ever seems to agree with your bullshit? If you don't, you should. Why? Because it is a good indicator for how full of shit you are.


Why would it be odd? It's no more odd then it would be for you to find hardly anyone agreeing with your worldview on a theist forum.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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