Why Islam is disgusting
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29-12-2012, 11:49 PM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(29-12-2012 07:43 PM)Janus Wrote:  
(29-12-2012 07:12 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  when is the last time you heard of a christian cutting out a guys tongue for not converting..



When is the last time you heard of muslim clergymen, thousands of them, institutionally abusing millions of boys over centuries...? No conversion required. At least that idiot muslim tongue cutter seemed to have a kinda 'moral' motive in his own warped mind. But I don't think many people would qualify the little boy fuckers', those with the holier than thou attitude, motives as 'moral'...

Come on! What the fuck does it matter what m.o.'s or numbers of victims one religion made, or how, as opposed to another? Is Xtianity 'better' than Islam because Xtianity killed 'only' 120 million people in the last 10 centuries, while Islam killed 140 million...? (Or whatever the numbers are).

Stop focusing on which religion is 'better' than another. They are all catastrophic for mankind. Religion, in any shape or form, is evil incarnate.


I disagree with you. Let's say you are faced with a choice. Get your tongue cut out or suffer a forced orgasm at the hands of some unknown guy. Me personally I would go with the orgasm and I don't really care what age we are talking about. I realize that both are wrong and against the law, but I would sooner allow my kids to hang out with a priest than a muslim fanatic. Which do you think is the lesser of two evils?
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30-12-2012, 01:46 AM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
So I guess that most people are just going to ignore that one? Colour me unsurprised.

Hey, Janus.

Let's look at some facts. HIV/AIDS is NO LONGER a death sentence. So you need to adjust your talking point. Furthermore, there are issues surrounding the spread, prevention and treatment of HIV/AIDS on the African continent that go well beyond not using condoms. This is not an exhortation, it is a re-grounding of the issue in reality. As a person with siblings, nephews, aunts, uncles and cousins living in Zambia, the AIDS issue is a very real concern for me. I prefer to discuss the facts.

Furthermore, that is not, in fact, any kind of archetypal fascism. Fascism is an often misused term. This is one such case. Is it good that they discriminate against homosexuals? Of course not. But let's look at that. The Catholic church does not demonise homosexuals. That's American right wing Evangelicals. The Catholic church simply views homosexual sex as sinful; as sinful as pre-marital sex, pornography and masturbation. This is not because homosexuals are evil, but because the sex act is a sacrament and because they believe it is all about procreation. Do I agree? Of course not. But that doesn't mean you get to be hyperbolic. There are facts that you and I both have to contend with.

Quote: I want them – all of the capos; for the RC church that would be all
bishops and up – publicly tried, convicted, and appropriately punished
as an immoral, genocidal, and criminal organisation.

I have that exact same sentiment when it comes to the US government. Unfortunately, the US refuses to sign onto the International War Crime Tribunal in the Hague, so it ain't happening. But as much as I'd love to see men like Kissinger hang for what he's done, none of it affects my impression of the American people.

Lastly, what does any of this have to do with the subject of the cutting out of a man's tongue?

Hey, Carlo.

Your statement was vague. So just to make sure, I want to make it patently clear that I for one do not defend Islam.

Next item of business. Islam does nothing. Do you have a sketch of Islam? How tall is it? Does it have any scars or tattoos?

Islam does nothing. We should not anthropomorphise it.

Also, if a Muslim does something, for whatever reason, that does not mean that Muslims, plural, do that thing. As a black man, I am painfully aware of this conflation. A good friend of mine, a Trinidadian, once saw a woman accidentally leave $140 at an ATM. He picked it up and ran after her to give it back. She took off running like he was about to rape her, cuz, y'know, that's what we do, right?

Hey, Chas and Druid.

Of course Christians are capable of acts of atrocity. But the real question here isn't 'who is capable of such an act'. It's not even 'did this act occur'. The real question is, why did it happen and how widespread is it? No one is having the why conversation outside of "they be crazy", which for all intents and purposes is useless lip flapping. And there is no evidence that this is a widespread phenomenon.

There have been around 17 to 18 thousand homicides a year on average in the United States for the last 15 years. So do I just go ahead and exclaim that Americans are murderers? Not likely. So how does ONE incident, horrific as it is, suggest that an entire people are tongue-cutter-outers?

Hey, Bird.

Thank you for being the only person to engage directly with what I wrote. Real talk.

I would love to see a scrap of evidence that shows that cutting people's tongues out is widespread anywhere. Also, any countries in particular, or just all of em?

I ain't talking about Hitler. I'm talking about American white power neo-Nazi skinheads. The kind I ran into at lunch the other day; much to my disgust. The kind that want to beat the living fuck out of me because I exist. Those guys are white people. I think the "white power" chants give it away. What I'm saying is that no matter how many white supremacists there are in the world, I never for a second pretend that that is representative of all white people.

In closing, the OP makes a statement; that the tongue removal is one of, if not the reason that Islam is disgusting. There have been a lot of blanket statements and a lot of ranting about unassociated things, but I'm dealing with the OP. The crime perpetrated is disgusting. I'll have words with anyone who says otherwise. That's not up for debate. But is it indicative of all Islam, or rather is it just a piece of flimsy circumstantial evidence that is being dragged around the city walls like Hector's corpse to reinforce a per-existing narrative that casts Islam as the irredeemable bad guy just like every other such movement has done before: black people are irredeemable, Jews are irredeemable, the Irish are irredeemable. Does this narrative not get a little tired after a while? Is it still so impenetrable to facts?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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30-12-2012, 02:18 AM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(30-12-2012 01:46 AM)Ghost Wrote:  So I guess that most people are just going to ignore that one? Colour me unsurprised.

Hey, Janus.

Let's look at some facts. HIV/AIDS is NO LONGER a death sentence. So you need to adjust your talking point. Furthermore, there are issues surrounding the spread, prevention and treatment of HIV/AIDS on the African continent that go well beyond not using condoms. This is not an exhortation, it is a re-grounding of the issue in reality. As a person with siblings, nephews, aunts, uncles and cousins living in Zambia, the AIDS issue is a very real concern for me. I prefer to discuss the facts.

Furthermore, that is not, in fact, any kind of archetypal fascism. Fascism is an often misused term. This is one such case. Is it good that they discriminate against homosexuals? Of course not. But let's look at that. The Catholic church does not demonise homosexuals. That's American right wing Evangelicals. The Catholic church simply views homosexual sex as sinful; as sinful as pre-marital sex, pornography and masturbation. This is not because homosexuals are evil, but because the sex act is a sacrament and because they believe it is all about procreation. Do I agree? Of course not. But that doesn't mean you get to be hyperbolic. There are facts that you and I both have to contend with.

Quote: I want them – all of the capos; for the RC church that would be all
bishops and up – publicly tried, convicted, and appropriately punished
as an immoral, genocidal, and criminal organisation.


I have that exact same sentiment when it comes to the US government. Unfortunately, the US refuses to sign onto the International War Crime Tribunal in the Hague, so it ain't happening. But as much as I'd love to see men like Kissinger hang for what he's done, none of it affects my impression of the American people.

Lastly, what does any of this have to do with the subject of the cutting out of a man's tongue?

Hey, Carlo.

Your statement was vague. So just to make sure, I want to make it patently clear that I for one do not defend Islam.

Next item of business. Islam does nothing. Do you have a sketch of Islam? How tall is it? Does it have any scars or tattoos?

Islam does nothing. We should not anthropomorphise it.

Also, if a Muslim does something, for whatever reason, that does not mean that Muslims, plural, do that thing. As a black man, I am painfully aware of this conflation. A good friend of mine, a Trinidadian, once saw a woman accidentally leave $140 at an ATM. He picked it up and ran after her to give it back. She took off running like he was about to rape her, cuz, y'know, that's what we do, right?

Hey, Chas and Druid.

Of course Christians are capable of acts of atrocity. But the real question here isn't 'who is capable of such an act'. It's not even 'did this act occur'. The real question is, why did it happen and how widespread is it? No one is having the why conversation outside of "they be crazy", which for all intents and purposes is useless lip flapping. And there is no evidence that this is a widespread phenomenon.

There have been around 17 to 18 thousand homicides a year on average in the United States for the last 15 years. So do I just go ahead and exclaim that Americans are murderers? Not likely. So how does ONE incident, horrific as it is, suggest that an entire people are tongue-cutter-outers?

Hey, Bird.

Thank you for being the only person to engage directly with what I wrote. Real talk.

I would love to see a scrap of evidence that shows that cutting people's tongues out is widespread anywhere. Also, any countries in particular, or just all of em?

I ain't talking about Hitler. I'm talking about American white power neo-Nazi skinheads. The kind I ran into at lunch the other day; much to my disgust. The kind that want to beat the living fuck out of me because I exist. Those guys are white people. I think the "white power" chants give it away. What I'm saying is that no matter how many white supremacists there are in the world, I never for a second pretend that that is representative of all white people.

In closing, the OP makes a statement; that the tongue removal is one of, if not the reason that Islam is disgusting. There have been a lot of blanket statements and a lot of ranting about unassociated things, but I'm dealing with the OP. The crime perpetrated is disgusting. I'll have words with anyone who says otherwise. That's not up for debate. But is it indicative of all Islam, or rather is it just a piece of flimsy circumstantial evidence that is being dragged around the city walls like Hector's corpse to reinforce a per-existing narrative that casts Islam as the irredeemable bad guy just like every other such movement has done before: black people are irredeemable, Jews are irredeemable, the Irish are irredeemable. Does this narrative not get a little tired after a while? Is it still so impenetrable to facts?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


I do agree that it may not be every single muslim on the planet that does this kind of thing. I still say that in islamic countries this kind of thing is quite common. I did some google research. Here are some links to check out. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/more-m...danes.html http://coffeeandsleeplessnights.wordpres...n-muslims/ <---this one seems to have some great info. As you see here, there is a lot of violence directed from muslims against non-muslims. Even if half of the croud does not even feel this way, it is far easier for them to go with the mob mentality than to stand against them and possibly lose their tongue or get burned to death. It is like what was going on during the crusades and the salem witch trials. I am sure that at least a few did not actually believe in witches. It was just better for them to let friends and relatives burn and hang than to speak up and die also. This is why Islam must be stopped. The rational followers have no backbone. I have serious problems with muslims immigrating here due to the whole mob mentality thing and their desire to adopt sharia law here. We cannot allow it. If we do, there will be a new civil war. Once their numbers are large enough and nobody on their side knows who is a true believer and who is not, they will fight us as if they are all islamic fundies.
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30-12-2012, 08:12 AM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(30-12-2012 01:46 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas and Druid.

Of course Christians are capable of acts of atrocity. But the real question here isn't 'who is capable of such an act'. It's not even 'did this act occur'. The real question is, why did it happen and how widespread is it? No one is having the why conversation outside of "they be crazy", which for all intents and purposes is useless lip flapping. And there is no evidence that this is a widespread phenomenon.

There have been around 17 to 18 thousand homicides a year on average in the United States for the last 15 years. So do I just go ahead and exclaim that Americans are murderers? Not likely. So how does ONE incident, horrific as it is, suggest that an entire people are tongue-cutter-outers?


Oh, c'mon, Matt. The context of what I said was that of history.
Whenever a religion has temporal power, it results in evil.
There are other sources of evil, but religion has the highest batting average.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-12-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(28-12-2012 05:36 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india...39708.html

You can chalk this one up in the tomes of data about religion doing harm.

An Indian student in Bohnn, Germany was brutally assaulted and had his tongue cut out for refusing to convert to Islam.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india...39708.html
I can understand when people say we can't judge a group of people, or a religion, based on any particular act. However, when you see atrocity after atrocity, it really makes you wonder whether this negative stereotype has merit.
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30-12-2012, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2012 09:05 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(30-12-2012 08:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, c'mon, Matt. The context of what I said was that of history.
Whenever a religion has temporal power, it results in evil.
There are other sources of evil, but religion has the highest batting average.
I'd rather say that the primary source of evil are totalitarian belief systems. That term covers both religious fundamentalism as well as secular dictatorships in which god is replaced with a totalitarian leader who has a god-like status (ex. North Korea).

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30-12-2012, 09:17 AM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
I recall watching an episode of Bill Maher awhile back, Bill Maher On Islam: "All Religions Are Not Alike"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2...alike.html

"Many Muslims, like half, think it is OK to kill some one if they insult the prophet."
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30-12-2012, 10:48 AM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2012 11:14 AM by Janus.)
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(30-12-2012 01:46 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Janus.

Let's look at some facts. HIV/AIDS is NO LONGER a death sentence.


Hey, Matt.

Better use your brain before you blurt out stuff like that:

Let's look at some facts. HIV/AIDS is a death sentence if you can't afford the obscenely expensive medication. Well, FYI: 99,99% of Africans can't afford the obscenely expensive medication (if they even know about it).

But even if they could, who is guilty of the millions that already died of HIV/AIDS before there was this medication for them?

Oh, and you had better be aware that over 50% of Americans can't afford the obscenely expensive life-long medication either. So if the US doesn't clean up its medicare/medicaid act HIV/AIDS will be a death sentence for millions of Americans too!

If you want to look at facts you can't just cherry-pick which you like and which you don't, my friend.
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30-12-2012, 02:52 PM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
Janus.

Quote:Well, FYI: 99,99% of Africans can't afford the obscenely expensive medication (if they even know about it).

Do you even have the capacity to grasp just how astonishingly ignorant that statement is?

I considered responding to the rest, but yeah, that's just way too offensive to warrant continuing.

Hey, Birdguy.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

The "Jihad Watch" story sounds a little too close to "niggers are destroying the neighbourhood" for my taste. Lots of generalising, not much substance.

The second one seems to be more rational. Putting aside the very high tension between French and Muslim immigrants to France, they seem to want to address the underlying social issue rather than fire off some blanket indictment of Islam.

Quote:“Don’t misunderstand, we are not speaking about a Muslim problem but the
lack of ability in our society to manage this malaise in the urban
estates which is overflowing more and more from the suburbs.”

That being said, neither of them even mention cutting out tongues.

I'll give you the fact that sometimes it's easier to go along with the wave. But I'm still not seeing any great link to a rash of tongues being cut out.

Quote:This is why Islam must be stopped. The rational followers have no backbone.

Sigh. Sam Harris and all of his ideas are a polyp on the anus of mankind.

Quote:I have serious problems with muslims immigrating here due to the whole
mob mentality thing and their desire to adopt sharia law here.

Woah. You just took a step into crazy land, brother. It's pretty hard core prejudice to not want an entire people to immigrate to your country because a small minority of them want to do something crazy.

Quote:We cannot allow it. If we do, there will be a new civil war. Once their
numbers are large enough and nobody on their side knows who is a true
believer and who is not, they will fight us as if they are all islamic
fundies.

You seem like a reasonable person. But if that's what you actually think, then there is a fundamental gulf between us and I cannot in good conscious try to meet you in the middle. It's base fearmongering of the worst kind. I hope you aren't married to the idea, but to each his own.

Hey, Chas.

I think we're talking past each other. I have no idea what your objection is.

Hey, Diablo.

Quote:I can understand when people say we can't judge a group of people, or a
religion, based on any particular act. However, when you see atrocity
after atrocity, it really makes you wonder whether this negative
stereotype has merit.

That's the danger of stereotype. People sometimes buy into it.

Like I said, if one begins with the narrative that Islam is evil, then for sure, one will find all manner of anecdotal evidence to support that narrative. My issue is not the existence of anecdotal evidence. My issue is with the narrative.

Hey, Vosur.

Quote:I'd rather say that the primary source of evil are totalitarian belief
systems. That term covers both religious fundamentalism as well as
secular dictatorships in which god is replaced with a totalitarian
leader who has a god-like status (ex. North Korea).

Word.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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30-12-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: Why Islam is disgusting
(29-12-2012 07:43 PM)Janus Wrote:  
(29-12-2012 07:12 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  when is the last time you heard of a christian cutting out a guys tongue for not converting..


When is the last time you heard of muslim clergymen, thousands of them, institutionally abusing millions of boys over centuries...? No conversion required. At least that idiot muslim tongue cutter seemed to have a kinda 'moral' motive in his own warped mind. But I don't think many people would qualify the little boy fuckers', those with the holier than thou attitude, motives as 'moral'...

Come on! What the fuck does it matter what m.o.'s or numbers of victims one religion made, or how, as opposed to another? Is Xtianity 'better' than Islam because Xtianity killed 'only' 120 million people in the last 10 centuries, while Islam killed 140 million...? (Or whatever the numbers are).

Stop focusing on which religion is 'better' than another. They are all catastrophic for mankind. Religion, in any shape or form, is evil incarnate.
the post you cherry picked from said more than that... i think you missed my point.. i agree that all religion is bad.. maybe thats why i started by saying that i wasnt defending christianity.. oh and do some research, you might find muslam imams doing the same type thing as catholic priests..
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