Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
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29-07-2014, 06:30 PM
Re: RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:12 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 06:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  To prove what? Their genetic lineage? And do it every few years to prove they're not an imposter who killed the royal and replaced them?

The divinity aspect is irrelevant now.

To prove that people want them as their head of state.

That's what public opinion polls effectively dictate.

What would be the point of repeatedly having elections every few years for this choice? You have some strange views if you think the Americans system of being able to vote a person as president is superior to Canada's political position.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-07-2014, 06:31 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:26 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Well I mean... War? Prosperity? Hunger? Distribution of wealth? Murder rates? Is there a public outcry for change?

A lot of people don't like our PM, if that is what you are asking. But many of those people are leftists or liberals who are even worse than our PM. The only good political current in this entire country is Quebec nationalism. When I get my education I am hoping to learn French and move to Quebec.
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29-07-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:02 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 05:13 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  They're royal's, not politicians.
And if you mean elections to decide if they remain royals or not you will find that you wont win because they are overwhelmingly liked and well received by the public.

So
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to you.

They should run in elections every four years, and if what you say is true they will win everytime.


Sigh... Do you know what a constitutional monarchy is? "Constitutional monarchy is a form of democratic government in which a monarch acts as a non-party political head of state within the boundaries of a constitution, whether written or unwritten."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio...ite_note-1

Quote:Also, it doesn't matter if people want monarchs or not, in order for the state to be able to claim any moral legitimacy it must subject its leaders to elections or else there is no proof of popular sovereignty. No matter how much you claim that they are supported by the people you have absolutely no proof if you don't hold elections.

Unless you have the capacity to do reasonably unbiased surveys of the public opinion... Also in most(?) countries with constitutional monarchy referendums can be held in order to abolish monarchy; if elected politicians find such a referendum is warranted.


Quote:How atheists can defend a government based off supposed divine appointment is beyond me. And secular monarchies are the least moral of all, because without the divine right of kings a monarch is basically admitting that the only reason he is in power is because one of his ancestors used bigger-army diplomacy, or in other words he has as much moral legitimacy as fucking Somali dictators.

Rolleyes

You do understand that history, tradition and national institutions appeal to a lot of people, and that you can derive legitimacy from those, right?
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29-07-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:32 PM)Gaest Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 06:02 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  They should run in elections every four years, and if what you say is true they will win everytime.


Sigh... Do you know what a constitutional monarchy is? "Constitutional monarchy is a form of democratic government in which a monarch acts as a non-party political head of state within the boundaries of a constitution, whether written or unwritten."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio...ite_note-1

Quote:Also, it doesn't matter if people want monarchs or not, in order for the state to be able to claim any moral legitimacy it must subject its leaders to elections or else there is no proof of popular sovereignty. No matter how much you claim that they are supported by the people you have absolutely no proof if you don't hold elections.

Unless you have the capacity to do reasonably unbiased surveys of the public opinion... Also in most(?) countries with constitutional monarchy referendums can be held in order to abolish monarchy; if elected politicians find such a referendum is warranted.


Quote:How atheists can defend a government based off supposed divine appointment is beyond me. And secular monarchies are the least moral of all, because without the divine right of kings a monarch is basically admitting that the only reason he is in power is because one of his ancestors used bigger-army diplomacy, or in other words he has as much moral legitimacy as fucking Somali dictators.

Rolleyes

You do understand that history, tradition and national institutions appeal to a lot of people, and that you can derive legitimacy from those, right?

Monarchy is national disgrace, not something to be proud of. Nations that have self-respect don't let themselves be run by a monarch, let alone a foreigner-monarch.
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29-07-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 05:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 05:28 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Can I just add that the collective wealth of the royal family (the British one) is estimated to just top $1billion.
Sure, this seems like a lot but considering there are 1,645 billionaires in the world and they're on the low end of that it's not so bad.
Also consider that the US has 492 billionaires compared to UK's 47. If the issue is in regards to people inheriting a fuck-ton of cash that all they had to do was be born into than the Royal Family are hardly a concern and you're looking at the wrong continent.

We've been down this road here before, as I recall. There's also the fact that the ROI on outlaid cash is higher for the Royal family, (as PR *actors*) in Britain than any Wall Street PR firm gets for their clients per $ invested. It's a huge percentage return. It's a profitable cost center. The Royals are a very profitable PR concern. Monarchy related tourism brings in billions of bucarroos per year. It works. Would I go poke around Royal houses ? Maybe not, but lots of people want to do it.

Indeed.
Just to also add that I am very much pro-monarch. I'm actually a bit of a royal fanatic...

Quote:Also, it doesn't matter if people want monarchs or not,

ahhh actually it does. Especially when you're comparing it to elected officials and saying that they're (the elected official) are morally right because that's what the people want.

Quote:No matter how much you claim that they are supported by the people you have absolutely no proof if you don't hold elections.

Bullshit. There are many ways to gauge public opinion on things and regarding the royals they're always overwhelming in favor.

Quote:How atheists can defend a government based off supposed divine appointment is beyond me.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, it has no political biases.
It also doesn't mean I have to accept your claims when you're being a hypocrite.

Quote:blah blah blah without the divine right of kings blah blah blah

blah blah blah public opinion/repeat what I just said blah blah blah

Quote:To prove that people want them as their head of state.

That's already a thing. ie: New Zealand (where I reside), becoming a republic is an idea that floats around from time to time. It's not that popular (it's not unpopular, it's just not an issue) and so doesn't have much traction. If NZer's suddenly felt the urge to break from the commonwealth and become a Republic than it would gain traction and a party that supported that issue would be elected and we'd break away and become a republic.

Thus public opinion and all that.

Quote:I really envy you Americans because you have a much better system of government.

Holy shit you are one ignorant fucktard...
Americans have a bigger monarchy than Britain does...

Quote:You can elect a leader, say what you want and don't have to bow to anyone simply because they came out of the right pussy.

How many different families have been President in the US? like 5?
Americans love them some "you have this family name, you must be a demi-god!" action.

Quote:We don't have that.

So move to America...

Quote:When I get my education...

Jesus Christ, no wonder you're an idiot. You're a 12 year old just repeating what mommy and daddy say around the dinner table.

Quote:Nations that have self-respect don't let themselves be run by a monarch

The Queen doesn't run the show. Just for your information.
Also, there are several better countries than the UK in Europe that have Monarchies, Sweden for example.

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29-07-2014, 06:41 PM
Re: RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:33 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 06:32 PM)Gaest Wrote:  Sigh... Do you know what a constitutional monarchy is? "Constitutional monarchy is a form of democratic government in which a monarch acts as a non-party political head of state within the boundaries of a constitution, whether written or unwritten."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio...ite_note-1


Unless you have the capacity to do reasonably unbiased surveys of the public opinion... Also in most(?) countries with constitutional monarchy referendums can be held in order to abolish monarchy; if elected politicians find such a referendum is warranted.



Rolleyes

You do understand that history, tradition and national institutions appeal to a lot of people, and that you can derive legitimacy from those, right?

Monarchy is national disgrace, not something to be proud of. Nations that have self-respect don't let themselves be run by a monarch, let alone a foreigner-monarch.

I would say having nationalist views is something people with self respect don't have. It leads to gigantic issues and is entirely an arbitrary distinction.

I might not believe it to a full degree, but I think you have to embrace others don't value things the same way you do in life. It's not a bad thing that disagreement exists.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-07-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:39 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 05:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We've been down this road here before, as I recall. There's also the fact that the ROI on outlaid cash is higher for the Royal family, (as PR *actors*) in Britain than any Wall Street PR firm gets for their clients per $ invested. It's a huge percentage return. It's a profitable cost center. The Royals are a very profitable PR concern. Monarchy related tourism brings in billions of bucarroos per year. It works. Would I go poke around Royal houses ? Maybe not, but lots of people want to do it.

Indeed.
Just to also add that I am very much pro-monarch. I'm actually a bit of a royal fanatic...

Quote:Also, it doesn't matter if people want monarchs or not,

ahhh actually it does. Especially when you're comparing it to elected officials and saying that they're (the elected official) are morally right because that's what the people want.

Quote:No matter how much you claim that they are supported by the people you have absolutely no proof if you don't hold elections.

Bullshit. There are many ways to gauge public opinion on things and regarding the royals they're always overwhelming in favor.

Quote:How atheists can defend a government based off supposed divine appointment is beyond me.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, it has no political biases.
It also doesn't mean I have to accept your claims when you're being a hypocrite.

Quote:blah blah blah without the divine right of kings blah blah blah

blah blah blah public opinion/repeat what I just said blah blah blah

Quote:To prove that people want them as their head of state.

That's already a thing. ie: New Zealand (where I reside), becoming a republic is an idea that floats around from time to time. It's not that popular (it's not unpopular, it's just not an issue) and so doesn't have much traction. If NZer's suddenly felt the urge to break from the commonwealth and become a Republic than it would gain traction and a party that supported that issue would be elected and we'd break away and become a republic.

Thus public opinion and all that.

Quote:I really envy you Americans because you have a much better system of government.

Holy shit you are one ignorant fucktard...
Americans have a bigger monarchy than Britain does...

Quote:You can elect a leader, say what you want and don't have to bow to anyone simply because they came out of the right pussy.

How many different families have been President in the US? like 5?
Americans love them some "you have this family name, you must be a demi-god!" action.

Quote:We don't have that.

So move to America...

Quote:When I get my education...

Jesus Christ, no wonder you're an idiot. You're a 12 year old just repeating what mommy and daddy say around the dinner table.

Quote:Nations that have self-respect don't let themselves be run by a monarch

The Queen doesn't run the show. Just for your information.
Also, there are several better countries than the UK in Europe that have Monarchies, Sweden for example.

Laugh out load
Sweden? Sweden is a immigrant shithole where Moslem immigrants rape women while feminists cheer them on. Shame too, because it used to be such a nice place.

Also I am not 12, I am 16 and my mother is a royalist so you can stop pulling ad hominem attacks out of your ass.

Also good to know that I am dealing with a reactionary royalist prick.
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29-07-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
Son, you're obvious going through a troubling time in your life, hormones are raging, you still haven't grown your first pube, you're having strange feelings about your bestfriends butt when you play football, it's cool I get it but you don't need to go full retard.

Here is what I suggest. You take a step back, pop some zits or something I know what you young people are like worried about your appearance for the girls that never pay you any mind and all, ignore everything your parents say when they're angry at the news and look at the cold hard facts and come to opinion that you can actually say is your very own.

Can you do that sweetie-pie?

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29-07-2014, 06:55 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:53 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Son, you're obvious going through a troubling time in your life, hormones are raging, you still haven't grown your first pube, you're having strange feelings about your bestfriends butt when you play football, it's cool I get it but you don't need to go full retard.

Here is what I suggest. You take a step back, pop some zits or something I know what you young people are like worried about your appearance for the girls that never pay you any mind and all, ignore everything your parents say when they're angry at the news and look at the cold hard facts and come to opinion that you can actually say is your very own.

Can you do that sweetie-pie?

Resorting to ad hominems. How cute.

Now why don't you go away, pull you head out of your 15th Century ass, and then come back.
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29-07-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: Why Monarchies have No Moral Legitimacy
(29-07-2014 06:55 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 06:53 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Son, you're obvious going through a troubling time in your life, hormones are raging, you still haven't grown your first pube, you're having strange feelings about your bestfriends butt when you play football, it's cool I get it but you don't need to go full retard.

Here is what I suggest. You take a step back, pop some zits or something I know what you young people are like worried about your appearance for the girls that never pay you any mind and all, ignore everything your parents say when they're angry at the news and look at the cold hard facts and come to opinion that you can actually say is your very own.

Can you do that sweetie-pie?

Resorting to ad hominems. How cute.

Now why don't you go away, pull you head out of your 15th Century ass, and then come back.

If you can resort to being a retard I think it's fair game I resort to ad hominems.

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