Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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03-09-2013, 10:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 11:50 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Hell, I need to post this again?

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V...


If you posit an all powerful creator, who is also benevolent, then there is no reason for children (or anything else) to suffer. We live in a universe where children suffer needlessly. This would indicate a number of possibilities.

Either the creator lacks the power to make a universe without suffering, which makes it impotent.

Or the creator doesn't care to make a universe without suffering, which makes it malevolent.

Or the creator simply does not exists, absolving 'it' of all responsibility.

So something has to give because reality and the creator's attributes are incompatible. Since we can confirm that our reality is in fact this way, then the definitions of the creator must give, since they clearly do not fit in with reality. So the creator cannot be both all-powerful and benevolent, because of the clearly verifiable suffering that exists.

To not acknowledge this is intellectually dishonest, and shows a supreme lack of imagination on the part of many theists. Just because you can't imagine a universe without suffering, doesn't mean an all-powerful creator could not create one. By it's very definition, it must have the power to do so. So it either doesn't have that power or doesn't care to. Once again, impotent, malevolent, or non-existent; it is as simple as that.

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03-09-2013, 11:13 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Hopefully we can stop this shitty conversation now. "God" clearly not only allows suffering of children, but delights in it and orders it too. I know because the bible tells me so...

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7 NLT)

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything.
(Joshua 6:20-21 NLT) ("God" made it possible for the walls to come down allowing the men to kill all the children as is "his" want)

"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

"The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes." (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith - twenty towns - and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter - his only child - ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." Judges 11:29-40

"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)

...
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03-09-2013, 11:56 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(03-09-2013 02:20 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I’m still keenly aware that some type of possession (or pride!) is preventing you from acknowledging Jesus as Lord, even in this context. What are you afraid of? You’re afraid of typing 11 letters with 3 spaces between them?

You really want me to lie for Jebus don't you.
Honesty seems to be unimportant to you. I suppose I should not be surprised.
You people in the religion business have little use for honesty.
Amazing that in 2013, an elderly adult can still think in such infantile terms.
How sad.
I do find it interesting that you NEED, (NEED), to explain it away to yourself, to minimize the cognitive dissonance resulting from honest unbelief.
"No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him".
What ? You never read your Babble, SPJTJ ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-09-2013, 08:36 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(03-09-2013 11:13 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Hopefully we can stop this shitty conversation now. "God" clearly not only allows suffering of children, but delights in it and orders it too. I know because the bible tells me so...

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

+100 RaptorJesus, good work. Having someone tell me that I have no grounds to judge genocide as bad nearly made my head explode and I remembered how crazy all of this stuff is. The more I read and watch videos, the more I realize how many more people before us have answered these questions profoundly, and how anyone who actually cared about truth would have their answer already. Kind of makes the whole thing seem pointless.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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04-09-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote:"You're a liar" only requires 10 letters Sleazy.

Thank you. I was off this thread for about a day, and was worried no one cared enough to assault me again. Thanks again for mocking one of God’s children.

Do you have something of substance to add to the debate after lambasting old PJ?
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04-09-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: That statement only works if it's true. I've experienced people who think contrary to what you've stated. You're also stating the suffering only as an action: 'killing babies' and 'babies dying at birth due to natural causes' are two very different things. The first, by a theist, is usually explained in the context of sin and free will. The second is the more challenging example that cannot be explained in the context of a loving god.

I only speak for myself here but you're absolutely right: there are times when bad suffering does have meaning. There's no conflict for me when I agree with that. I don't think that's the issue for everyone here. It's the meaningless suffering that conflicts with the description of a loving god.

What is meaningless suffering? Lives ended before birth (no, not abortion... no free-will here. Would you like to see a list of natural causes of death for unborn children?). SIDS. Fatal genetic birth defects.

You've addressed some suffering, but you've stayed well away from the bottom of the barrel. A short, painful life full of suffering makes no sense when an omnipotent god is in charge. What I originally interpreted as offensive was simply you trying to find something to make meaningless suffering coexist with your god.

I’ve already addressed my own miscarried child. However, I’d like to accept your statements above as wholly true. Can you resolve:

“Some suffering is meaningless, some suffering is not meaningless,” and then input that into your calculations about a loving deity? What do you think?
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04-09-2013, 01:35 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(04-09-2013 01:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Thanks again for mocking one of God’s children.
It is your fate to be mocked, how dare you rail against the God who chose this fate for you.
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04-09-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote:[imaginary] god himself caused abortions when the pregnancy was believed to be caused from adultery. Read Numbers 5:11. You really need to learn the bible, it would help you be a better apologist. As a result, your bible provides no "moral basis" to critique people who get abortions whatsoever. Nice try.

Numbers 5 doesn’t say or imply that the woman is pregnant. Perhaps you are thinking of something else? I recommend sticking to non-Bible arguments here because I’ve read the Bible many times in many versions and think about it and teach it constantly. If god commanded abortions, I think I would have noticed that already (along with all those rightist fundamentalist Bible thumpers), don’t you think?

Quote:But on what objective moral grounds shall I determine my morality? Definitely NOT the bible, since god can commit abortions as long as it favors a man, but if it favors a women in modern times, THEN its immoral. That's a double standard in favor of Patriarchy.

Than are you daring to suggest you do have an objective and not a subjective moral code? Please, explain this to all of us.

Quote:Oh, and I thought we were keeping emotionality out of the debate? You can feel moral indignation at what PEOPLE do, but we can't feel moral indignation on what GOD commands in the bible? How very peculiar, but telling.

Huh? Um, I’m suggesting that others on these threads who rant and rave and curse and tell me to f myself are not mature enough to discuss ideas. For some reason, it’s okay for me to nod my head and smile when atheists state that if god exists he is a capricious scumbag who inflicts cruelty on humans, but it’s also okay for me to suggest The Holocaust or suffering has purpose and meaning but get f-bombed for doing so? Really? I’m sure you uphold higher moral standards and not double standards also like some of the people here who really are emotional about these philosophical issues.

I further forgive those who’ve attacked me as I did instantly when they first did and invite them to try on new clothes in our shopping mall of ideas and ideologies.

Quote:Regarding what moral ethic do I use to judge god - the good. Things are good in and of themselves, without any reference to any outside objective moral being.

Can you give us all an example? If a tree falls in the forest and nobody sees it fall, how do you know it was a “good” fall? Please tell us more about the inherent goodness of certain things.

Quote:We can discover this good by paying attention to the effect our actions have on others and on ourselves. As we increase our mindfulness every day in our experiences, we can know the levels of good in things through our experience with them. Because the things we experience are, in fact, outside ourselves, if someone is paying proper attention and mindful, they will understand the "good" in those things or interactions in an objective way. As a result, an objective moral code is possible.

It’s still a subjective code. A cannibal can eat a baby tonight and feel good about feeling full. The positive effect it has on others is he can feed his tribe the leftovers if they also have had hunger. You are promoting a populist type of argument like “most people think certain things are good” or even worse for a debate, a personal argument that your moral compass is objectively correct.

Quote:Claiming that atheists have no moral grounds to judge god based on attributing the naturalistic fallacy to all atheists when most do not ascribe to naturalism as a basis for morality is pretty sophomoric. Survival of the Fittest is simply an observation as to the fact. This would be akin to saying "the fastest baseball player reaches first base first." It says NOTHING of the moral right or wrong of reaching first base first or being the fastest, if there is one.

I’m well aware of this, which is why I’m saying you have a subjective moral code. You are right, there is no naturalistic basis for the inherent goodness or badness of anything, my exact point re: “It is inherently bad for the young to suffer so any god would have erred.” In the animal kingdom predators prey on the young, to survive.

Quote:Attributing the Naturalistic fallacy to all atheists is a pretty weak generalization. In my opinion Secular morality is FAR superior to religion-based morality.

That’s a side issue from this thread but a common error. How a positivist ethic like “let’s not kill because we want to collectively promote life” is many degrees away from “love your enemy, pray for them, and give them things”! I’d say it’s the reverse and god holds higher standards than ethical moralists of the positivist type.

However, I will concede this point to you also, once you demonstrate the inherent “goodness” of moral acts or moral ethics. If you’re unable to do so, the inherent “badness” of something will do also.

Again, just so we’re clear, repeating that “most people affirm life” or “helping others not suffer is good” is not the kind of smoking gun, empirical evidence that atheists demand of theists re: the existence of god or even the existence of a positive biblical moral code.

Quote:If that's the point you might want to start a new thread. You've been destroyed on the concept of suffering in general - an omniscient god that created a "practice" world where we all suffer to "test" us to find out who will make it to "heaven," when he already knows the answer, is pretty sadistic - we do judge god and his actions are found wanting.

That’s a misrepresentation of what I wrote. I’ve given over a dozen good reasons why most or much suffering can make good sense. I also have written that this is not a “practice” world, but rather, that a god who does not warn people on Earth about Hell is indeed sadistic and cruel. Clearly, if there is a Hell and also a Heaven, for one example, a sick adult may either be happy to leave or warned to get right before leaving this world. And that’s just one example.

However, I will agree that you and I both can judge god and find his actions wanting, certainly, once we establish that all suffering is bad. It’s not, not by a long shot. So perhaps you can explain why suffering is inherently bad, always, and we can move on from there.

Quote:If there is no god, then all this random suffering and excess suffering makes sense. No loving Omniscient Omnipotent being is looking out for us.

Please give an example of random suffering, because not even a child being born with a defect is random. I mean, you’re a typical atheist, right, in terms of saying faith is full of air and science full of natural answers? Birth defects aren’t random in any way, shape or form! Nor do lightning bolts and ray beams make “random” people suffer:

*People who touch hot stoves suffer—not random

*The hotter the stove, the more the suffering—not random

*People who commit rape or incest should suffer guilt and do, often far more than people who merely lust and masturbate—not random

I can provide still more examples but if you think is suffering is a random anomaly you are ascribing non-natural causes to a natural phenomenon and you’ll lose your dinner place at the atheist club table, so be careful. Suffering is NEVER random!

Quote:If you want to ask HOW we judge god, maybe you should start a thread asking how atheists have morals.

I’m conversant with ethics without morality, with the 95%-plus percent of people in all cultures who agree murder and incest are wrong, how atheists promote a collective society and positivist ethics, etc. The problem is you’re writing but I’m unsure you’re reading your own writing. You are making titanic statements like “some things are inherently good” and “suffering is inherently bad” without justification. I’m not trying to “win a debate” but rather, get you to think outside of the box a bit.

I’ll agree with you publicly on this forum that a [hypothetical or real] god made a big mistake re: suffering. But you’re going to have to demonstrate how you “know” suffering is bad, first! This is about the tenth time on this thread alone I’ve asked. Please step up and come to bat amongst your peers!

Or try it this way if you would. Since very few atheists will say Hitler was evil or even bad, and will rather say his ethics were inappropriate or that he was just “ill”, how can we say the god who made Hitler is bad or evil? That is a non sequitur, isn’t it?

Quote:And yes I did pass the bar, first try, in the top 8% nationwide. Badow.

Ba-ding! Nice work. My brother passed it too and is building a business and not practicing at the moment.

Quote: Didn't we all prove your bible wrong when we DID type Jesus is Lord? How are you still on that ridiculous point? The bible said no man, but through the holy spirit, can speak those words. We did and proved the bible wrong. Do you ever see the other side of things or just keep chasing the same old haggard BS even when you know its not true?

Why do I even try? What a waste of time.

The Holy Spirit can enable someone to speak or type the words, yes. Where in the Bible did you read only the Christians can have the Holy Spirit?

But Skippy, you must have missed my posts on this point to others. It’s BB who has been asked multiple times to type Jesus is Lord and without responding. I’ve said before that challenge is from me @BB. He’s the one with the deeper spiritual problems IMO.
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04-09-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: If you posit an all powerful creator, who is also benevolent, then there is no reason for children (or anything else) to suffer. We live in a universe where children suffer needlessly. This would indicate a number of possibilities.

Before going on, you have a false premise if there is a reason for children or anything else to suffer. I suffer pain when someone bites me hard on the arm, and this motivates me on an evolutionary basis to a fight or flight instinct (oversimplifying here). Do you deny this?

Obviously you do so let’s go on to your points in specific next.

Quote:Either the creator lacks the power to make a universe without suffering, which makes it impotent.

Unless suffering is to someone’s benefit, and then he’s still a benevolent being.

Quote:Or the creator doesn't care to make a universe without suffering, which makes it malevolent.

A simple syllogism that is bereft of the Christ suffering and dying for us. He cares.

Quote:Or the creator simply does not exists, absolving 'it' of all responsibility.

Which would push ALL responsibility on human shoulders for suffering. Do you deny this?

Quote:So something has to give because reality and the creator's attributes are incompatible. Since we can confirm that our reality is in fact this way, then the definitions of the creator must give, since they clearly do not fit in with reality. So the creator cannot be both all-powerful and benevolent, because of the clearly verifiable suffering that exists.

Well, now you really are just cutting and pasting the same argument yet again. Address my questions above if you would, which modify your hypothesis.

Quote:To not acknowledge this is intellectually dishonest, and shows a supreme lack of imagination on the part of many theists. Just because you can't imagine a universe without suffering, doesn't mean an all-powerful creator could not create one. By it's very definition, it must have the power to do so. So it either doesn't have that power or doesn't care to. Once again, impotent, malevolent, or non-existent; it is as simple as that.

Again, when you’ve completed your anti-theism rhetoric, it would be lovely if you’d tackle some (any) of my sincere questions.

Thanks.
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04-09-2013, 02:08 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Hopefully we can stop this shitty conversation now. "God" clearly not only allows suffering of children, but delights in it and orders it too. I know because the bible tells me so...

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7 NLT)

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything.
(Joshua 6:20-21 NLT) ("God" made it possible for the walls to come down allowing the men to kill all the children as is "his" want)

"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

"The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes." (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith - twenty towns - and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter - his only child - ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." Judges 11:29-40

"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)

Raptor, a simple logical refutation of your premise will serve as an effective apologetic here.

I’ll agree with you god caused all this suffering and more, oh, much, much, much more. Indeed, I already have elsewhere on this thread.

Now as soon as you explain how it is that suffering is inherently bad or evil, we’ll be set.
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