Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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04-09-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: You really want me to lie for Jebus don't you.
Honesty seems to be unimportant to you. I suppose I should not be surprised.
You people in the religion business have little use for honesty.
Amazing that in 2013, an elderly adult can still think in such infantile terms.
How sad.
I do find it interesting that you NEED, (NEED), to explain it away to yourself, to minimize the cognitive dissonance resulting from honest unbelief.
"No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him".
What ? You never read your Babble, SPJTJ ?

BB, were you on drugs when this was written? It’s almost incomprehensible in those last few sentences. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say there.

Are you still physically unable to type “Jesus is Lord”? Really? It’s not like I asked you to type the gospel or “Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior and I love Him with all my soul.”

Please don’t lie and have a more spiritual friend do it for you using your login.
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04-09-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(04-09-2013 02:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now as soon as you explain how it is that suffering is inherently bad or evil, we’ll be set.

If God is omnipotent, then the reason there is suffering is that he *wants* suffering. That makes him evil, by the usual definition of the word. You can weasel around trying to redefine the word evil if you like.
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04-09-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: +100 RaptorJesus, good work. Having someone tell me that I have no grounds to judge genocide as bad nearly made my head explode and I remembered how crazy all of this stuff is. The more I read and watch videos, the more I realize how many more people before us have answered these questions profoundly, and how anyone who actually cared about truth would have their answer already. Kind of makes the whole thing seem pointless.

Skippy,

You never even TRIED to demonstrate how you know inherently that genocide is bad, or actually, anything! I agree with you genocide is bad and never said you didn’t have grounds to judge it, just that you must be honest and admit your grounds aren’t objective but subjective.

Again, not only do we differ in ethics but atheists differ between themselves in ethics. Therefore, to “know” what an omniscient god “has” to do, we must logically define terms.

I mean, if you’d tell us why Hitler was “evil” and not “unethical” we could blame god for Hitler’s actions, right? But Hitler and his people would say NOT to do genocide is unethical. How do you know Hitler was wrong apart from your ad populum appeal that “everyone knows” genocide is bad?

Look, I don’t even care if you type back an answer. I’ll consider it a victory if you think about your ethics and consider whether they are objective or subjective.

Thanks.
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04-09-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote:It is your fate to be mocked, how dare you rail against the God who chose this fate for you.

I don’t mind the mocking, I just mind the lack of thinking on your part(s).

I chose to come here and knew there would be mocking. How did I know? Because the Bible told me so! Now prove me wrong and the Bible wrong, and speak to me only respectfully, compassionately and logically.

I doubt you shall, because BB can’t even type Jesus is Lord. You see, there’s a spiritual issue there.
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04-09-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: If God is omnipotent, then the reason there is suffering is that he *wants* suffering. That makes him evil, by the usual definition of the word. You can weasel around trying to redefine the word evil if you like.

By the usual definition of WHICH word. YES, god wants suffering. He made it. He suffered on the cross. Yes.

Nor will I redefine “evil”. Unneeded suffering would be evil. Are you saying ALL suffering is unneeded?
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04-09-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Sure, I will show you how I know Genocide is bad, just as soon as you show me how you know Genocide is bad. What objective moral framework do you have to show you genocide is bad? Show me where in the Bible it shows that Genocide is Objectively bad at all times, all places, and all conditions. Then I'll show you mine. If you can't show me that, then you must admit that YOU have a subjective moral framework.

And so what if my moral framework is subjective? Even if I admit that - what does it show? Having a subjective moral framework that excludes Genocide and Slavery is better than a supposed objective one that permits it.

Oh, and we know that God is the source of all evil. The bible tells us so:

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."

And by the way - my moral framework is 98% the same as it was when I was a Christian - just add drinking alcohol and pre-martial sex and you are there. So what? Can I live like a Christian? Sure, so what? Will it get me into your heaven? NO! Why - because it takes ridiculous beliefs to get into heaven.

The whole argument is so silly. Even if you PROVE to me that my moral framework is somehow wrong - so what? What is the fucking point you are trying to prove?

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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04-09-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(04-09-2013 01:31 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  “Some suffering is meaningless, some suffering is not meaningless,” and then input that into your calculations about a loving deity? What do you think?

An omnipotent, loving, all-powerful god would not have to create meaningless suffering; it is a choice.
Meaningless suffering exists.
This god chose to create meaningless suffering.
This god is either not loving, not omnipotent, not all-powerful, or lacking a combination of these three attributes.

Would you define your god as lacking in one or more of the above attributes?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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04-09-2013, 04:32 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(04-09-2013 02:19 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: If God is omnipotent, then the reason there is suffering is that he *wants* suffering. That makes him evil, by the usual definition of the word. You can weasel around trying to redefine the word evil if you like.

By the usual definition of WHICH word. YES, god wants suffering. He made it. He suffered on the cross. Yes.

Nor will I redefine “evil”. Unneeded suffering would be evil. Are you saying ALL suffering is unneeded?

Weasel away, God boy Big Grin

We're assuming your God exists for the sake of argument.

Therefore you by the bolded statement are asking me if some suffering is necessary ? I don't know, you tell me. But since any unnecessary suffering is evil by your own admission, then unless you assert that *all* suffering is necessary (for God's apparently fabulous plan), then if God is omnipotent, God is evil, since he allows this unnecessary suffering to take place.

What is the purpose for which this suffering is "needed" ?
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04-09-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(04-09-2013 04:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-09-2013 02:19 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  SNIP

Nor will I redefine “evil”. Unneeded suffering would be evil. Are you saying ALL suffering is unneeded?

Therefore you by the bolded statement are asking me if some suffering is necessary ? I don't know, you tell me. But since any unnecessary suffering is evil by your own admission, then unless you assert that *all* suffering is necessary (for God's apparently fabulous plan), then if God is omnipotent, God is evil, since he allows this unnecessary suffering to take place.

What is the purpose for which this suffering is "needed" ?

Is that one of those Syllogism thingys?

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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04-09-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(04-09-2013 04:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  Therefore you by the bolded statement are asking me if some suffering is necessary ? I don't know, you tell me. But since any unnecessary suffering is evil by your own admission, then unless you assert that *all* suffering is necessary (for God's apparently fabulous plan), then if God is omnipotent, God is evil, since he allows this unnecessary suffering to take place.

The problem only arises if one accepts the premise of an all-powerful, all-loving God. Instead of, y'know, just a God.

Those are human attributes (or are at the very least artifacts of human perception), and thus when applied beyond human scope lead to an invalid conclusion.

Assuming that premise, then all suffering is necessarily necessary. Human observation and reason tell us that, even on accepting the premise, not all suffering is necessary. To maintain the premise and resolve the contradiction, one must suppose an unknowable greater purpose - the necessity of apparently unnecessary suffering is merely asserted and not only left un-demonstrated but is by definition un-demonstrable. One may then conclude that God is unknowable, as some theists do; this conclusion is then the result of a premise which relies on God being knowable.

Alternatively; one may recognize the premise, and further assert that those are qualities necessarily possessed by God, and that then one must ascribe that nature to all evidenced actions, despite human observation and reason. This removes any useful meaning from the terms, and amounts to saying "it is because it is". It is not particularly compelling.

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