Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
06-09-2013, 02:55 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Nice try. You didn't answer any of the questions.
I never use drugs. I'm a health nut.
But, I'm not surprised you don't get it. You don't get much, SPJTJ.
Why would I type a bit of meaningless drivel.
Jebus is Lard. That all you're gonna get. Why would you want me to lie ? Do you have a really dumb god, who wouldn't know I was lying ?
Are you getting desperate ? You haven't done anything here.
I suppose it's to be expected you would try to do the rumor thing, and accuse me of doing drugs.
Jebus no likey that shit. Shame on you, Church Lady.

The drugs comment was a facetious statement, the fact that you ramble on and make no sense about 1 in 4 messages, isn’t facetious.

Your inability to type Jesus as Lord upon five requests demonstrates either demonic possession or astonishing pride. Either way, you are serving as an example of what is wrong with atheism to any Christian who cares to listen.

Try this experiment if you would. Pray to Jesus to help you type Jesus is Lord, and see if the Holy Spirit assists you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-09-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(06-09-2013 02:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Nice try. You didn't answer any of the questions.
I never use drugs. I'm a health nut.
But, I'm not surprised you don't get it. You don't get much, SPJTJ.
Why would I type a bit of meaningless drivel.
Jebus is Lard. That all you're gonna get. Why would you want me to lie ? Do you have a really dumb god, who wouldn't know I was lying ?
Are you getting desperate ? You haven't done anything here.
I suppose it's to be expected you would try to do the rumor thing, and accuse me of doing drugs.
Jebus no likey that shit. Shame on you, Church Lady.

The drugs comment was a facetious statement, the fact that you ramble on and make no sense about 1 in 4 messages, isn’t facetious.

Your inability to type Jesus as Lord upon five requests demonstrates either demonic possession or astonishing pride. Either way, you are serving as an example of what is wrong with atheism to any Christian who cares to listen.

Try this experiment if you would. Pray to Jesus to help you type Jesus is Lord, and see if the Holy Spirit assists you.

It's the debil. The debil I tell you. I do get lots of exercise, tho, so my debil is well exorcised.
Thanks for proving you really have not a clue what goes on in the heads of non-believers. Not a clue.
At least I make sense in 3/4 posts. Your rate is about 0/100. Zippo. Nada.
Why would I type something moronic and meaningless. What is a "lord" anyway, in 2013 ? A meaningless term. Granted back when you were young in the Medieval period, it may have meant something. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-09-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(06-09-2013 02:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Human observation and reason tell us that, even on accepting the premise, not all suffering is necessary.

Baloney. Hotter stoves burn skin more. Rapists and paedophiles feel more sexual guilt and conflict that masturbators, etc.

The only way you can even try that argument is to talk about children suffering. And when an atheists says a child is “innocent” that are admitting the moral culpability of adult… wait for it… sinners.

All your quotations are unattributed, making it a pain in the ass to figure out what is a response to what, but this, at least, is responding to a post of mine.

Well; 'responding' is generous - a ludicrous non-sequitor is not really much of an answer. Mentioning children is misleading and irrelevant, as nowhere in the post you quote did I do so. Higher temperatures causing more severe burns is a trivial and irrelevant conclusion. And I am utterly unsure what claiming to know the mind of rapists and pedophiles is supposed to accomplish.

0/3 on relevance. Partial credit for trying.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-09-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(06-09-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Please explain to me how any suffering is meaningless when an omnipotent god wills it.

That is not the question. There is suffering that serves no purpose. How is that loving? That is the question I'm asking. Again, would you like to change your description of your god?

(06-09-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  He could have also chosen to be invisible and inflict suffering so you “see” him.

We are examining what, from the theist standpoint, he did do, not what he could have done. He's already created a place of eternal suffering, flooded the planet, and demanded a blood sacrifice of his own self. What he 'could' have done is pointless... I'd say he's hit rock bottom. Eternal suffering for an 0-90 year lifespan. Loving?

(06-09-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Atheists complain there is no evidence for god. Suffering gives you a philosophical argument against god’s existence rather then settling the agnostic nature of your beliefs more concretely. Meaninglessness prompts man by his nature to search for meaning. While I do not see suffering as meaningless, and while I see most, not some suffering as meaningful when it happens and not in some far-removed future from the suffering, well, atheists have no excuse for disbelief, just as the Bible states. Nice.

You REALLY need to get away from the Christian smear-campaign of dumping extra meaning into the word 'Atheist.' I do not believe god exists. I personally cannot know god does not exist as I can't explore every corner of the universe, therefore I claim to be agnostic and atheist. They coexist.

I don't have excuses for disbelief. I have reasons. You haven't, in quite a few posts, come even close to explaining why a god can create pointless suffering and be considered loving. And that's just one of hundreds of things that don't make sense when your religion tries to mingle with reality. But I'm supposed to just grab a bible, ignore all other religions, and chose the bible over reality whenever there's a conflict. Nice, indeed!

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes guitar_nut's post
09-09-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote:Not that you care, but I already have. Twice in fact. Here it is a third time.

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V

If you posit an all powerful creator, who is also benevolent, then there is no reason for children (or anything else) to suffer. We live in a universe where children suffer needlessly. This would indicate a number of possibilities.

Either the creator lacks the power to make a universe without suffering, which makes it impotent.

How does exercising a prerogative not to do something detract from omnipotence? Again, god could have made one, two or eleven moons to circle the Earth, and chose one. Please explain why your resolution is logical.

Quote:Or the creator doesn't care to make a universe without suffering, which makes it malevolent.

You do know I’m arguing the Christian paradigm for this and not abstract theism? Obviously, in the Christian paradigm, Christians and Jesus alleviate suffering, absolve suffering, make meaning of suffering, requite suffering, even demand suffering for justice. It is not “malevolent” to make a paedophile suffer, it is appropriate, and Jesus was clear on this point.

Quote:Or the creator simply does not exists, absolving 'it' of all responsibility.

So something has to give because reality and the creator's attributes are incompatible. Since we can confirm that our reality is in fact this way, then the definitions of the creator must give, since they clearly do not fit in with reality. So the creator cannot be both all-powerful and benevolent, because of the clearly verifiable suffering that exists.

Yes, if you can demonstrate why suffering is “bad”. Still waiting.

Quote:To not acknowledge this is intellectually dishonest, and shows a supreme lack of imagination on the part of many theists. Just because you can't imagine a universe without suffering, doesn't mean an all-powerful creator could not create one. By it's very definition, it must have the power to do so. So it either doesn't have that power or doesn't care to. Once again, impotent, malevolent, or non-existent; it is as simple as that.

I have both imagined such a universe and offered to you several possibilities:

*In a universe with no suffering, no pain, no discomfort, “pleasure” has no meaning and cannot be enjoyed

*Atheists have proposed that god has no free will if he is omnipotent and cannot do evil, recognizing that evil and free will go together—in a universe with no suffering, therefore, the humans have no free will

I’ll leave it there for now, but again, I’ve given you two responses to the hypothetical universe with free will creatures who are unable to suffer. You cannot claim a debate victory unless you respond to my counter proposals to your de facto “win”.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-09-2013, 02:49 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(09-09-2013 02:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I have both imagined such a universe and offered to you several possibilities:

*In a universe with no suffering, no pain, no discomfort, “pleasure” has no meaning and cannot be enjoyed

*Atheists have proposed that god has no free will if he is omnipotent and cannot do evil, recognizing that evil and free will go together—in a universe with no suffering, therefore, the humans have no free will

I’ll leave it there for now, but again, I’ve given you two responses to the hypothetical universe with free will creatures who are unable to suffer. You cannot claim a debate victory unless you respond to my counter proposals to your de facto “win”.

What you have imagined is of no consequence. It only acknowledges the limits of human imagination. You have imagined such a universe and found it to be impossible given the limits of your mind.

God's creation is not limited to what you can imagine.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
09-09-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(09-09-2013 02:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Not that you care, but I already have. Twice in fact. Here it is a third time.

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V

If you posit an all powerful creator, who is also benevolent, then there is no reason for children (or anything else) to suffer. We live in a universe where children suffer needlessly. This would indicate a number of possibilities.

Either the creator lacks the power to make a universe without suffering, which makes it impotent.

How does exercising a prerogative not to do something detract from omnipotence? Again, god could have made one, two or eleven moons to circle the Earth, and chose one. Please explain why your resolution is logical.

Quote:Or the creator doesn't care to make a universe without suffering, which makes it malevolent.

You do know I’m arguing the Christian paradigm for this and not abstract theism? Obviously, in the Christian paradigm, Christians and Jesus alleviate suffering, absolve suffering, make meaning of suffering, requite suffering, even demand suffering for justice. It is not “malevolent” to make a paedophile suffer, it is appropriate, and Jesus was clear on this point.

Quote:Or the creator simply does not exists, absolving 'it' of all responsibility.

So something has to give because reality and the creator's attributes are incompatible. Since we can confirm that our reality is in fact this way, then the definitions of the creator must give, since they clearly do not fit in with reality. So the creator cannot be both all-powerful and benevolent, because of the clearly verifiable suffering that exists.

Yes, if you can demonstrate why suffering is “bad”. Still waiting.

Quote:To not acknowledge this is intellectually dishonest, and shows a supreme lack of imagination on the part of many theists. Just because you can't imagine a universe without suffering, doesn't mean an all-powerful creator could not create one. By it's very definition, it must have the power to do so. So it either doesn't have that power or doesn't care to. Once again, impotent, malevolent, or non-existent; it is as simple as that.

I have both imagined such a universe and offered to you several possibilities:

*In a universe with no suffering, no pain, no discomfort, “pleasure” has no meaning and cannot be enjoyed

*Atheists have proposed that god has no free will if he is omnipotent and cannot do evil, recognizing that evil and free will go together—in a universe with no suffering, therefore, the humans have no free will

I’ll leave it there for now, but again, I’ve given you two responses to the hypothetical universe with free will creatures who are unable to suffer. You cannot claim a debate victory unless you respond to my counter proposals to your de facto “win”.

There is no such thing as "free will". Actually there is not even such a thing as a *present moment* to make the "free will" decision in.
1. Memories are "formations", not "recordings". Most everything that goes in brains is sub-conscious. Decisions are made BEFORE we are even conscious of them. They are formed on the basis of totally "formed" (not "objectively recorded") memories. In order for "free will" to happen, the memories would need to be 100 % "objective". They aren't. Never will be. They are totally subjective.
2. By the tiime the process of decision making is complete, nano-seconds have elapsed, and the "moment" has pased. What you experience as "present moment" for your "free will" decision is really already in the past. Plank time and all that.
You really should take a science class, Pleasy.
Jebus would be pleased.
BTW. Jebus is Lard.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-09-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Haha, right. Yeah that didn't happen, but do you have any other examples of what high standards god has kept himself to, besides his own self-sacrifice to himself to please himself to release himself from the judgment of future christians from.... himself! Yay, no making sensy.

I’m having trouble following your paragraph above, but I’ve said several times on this thread that we all hold subjective moral standards, even between two or more Christians or two or more atheists. So what makes you think god has a moral standard that exactly matches yours if he exists?

Quote:But, apart from that, mainly god of your bible kills, maims, threatens, boasts, brags, tortures, men, women and children for thousands of years, but sure, he is patient, he is kind, he is loving, he does not boast, he does not covet, wait, no he pretty much does all of those things, way worse than 99.9999% of all humans. What an awesome god, he reigns! Nah, not so much.

I have nothing to lose here on moral grounds. My god is loving and also takes vengeance. My god is compassionate and assigns appropriate accountability. Guns don’t kill people, god kills people. And? So? Let’s say he is worse than 99% of humans as you wrote. That gives you the moral high ground when god judges you? How does that assist you in your time of need?

And if god is amoral as you put it, are you sure you cannot think of a good reason to end a life? Really? Are you sure you cannot think of anything a god might have done that brings you pleasure in life from “goodness”? Really? I don’t believe you.

Quote:Your God can do ANYTHING, including delight at the smashing of baby's heads on rocks. Again with the punishing of children for the sins of their fathers - he sure loves that doctrine of holding the wrong person responsible.

LOL. I taught on Ezekiel 18 yesterday in church, a chapter-long refutation on this point. Read that chapter-god says he judged individuals, not father-sons.

Quote:Please show me one more example where God's moral code is actually "superior" to the one he requires of his creation, besides the no makey sensy sacrifice of himself, to himself. Any one. I am of the opinion that the biblical god holds himself to a much lower standard of morality, and the true "mystery" of xianity is how xians have the ability to not only excuse his behavior, but to twist it in a sick and perverted way to make it HIGHER than the morality required of his believers. Cheers!

For one of a hundred such examples, it was Roman law that a soldier could press a Jew into service, interrupting their daily routine or whatever they were doing, to carry their heavy equipment and etc. up to a mile. Now we have context for Jesus’s statement, “If someone asks you to go with them a mile, go with them two.” There are hundreds of such examples of Christian kindnesses and OT mercies to others as a witness. We see this played out in the life and death of MLK, Jr. and many others.

Quote:[NOTE AND DISCLAIMER: All references to "god" in all posts mean, specifically, the god of the theist to whom I am responding and only in a metaphorical sense. No references to "god" should or can be construed to be an admission of the existence of said "god" but rather a reference to how the aforementioned theist's "holy book" describes the attributes of said party's supposed "god". Ahem.]

Great! You won’t lose your atheist club card, now. “Don’t leave home without it.” God forbid you might CONSIDER there’s a god, after all. Nonsense, and your need to show such disclaimers shows the atheists have an artificial peer pressure upon the marketplace of ideas here!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-09-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Somebody forgot to read the sign on the door.
It says "The Thinking Atheist",
Not "dumbshits are welcome".
Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-09-2013, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2013 03:04 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(09-09-2013 02:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  For one of a hundred such examples, it was Roman law that a soldier could press a Jew into service, interrupting their daily routine or whatever they were doing, to carry their heavy equipment and etc. up to a mile. Now we have context for Jesus’s statement, “If someone asks you to go with them a mile, go with them two.”

Citation needed. I'm curious, as I've never heard of any forced labour (ie of a non-slave) in ancient Roman law.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: