Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-09-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Typing 'Jesus is Lord' does not make it anymore a truth or a fact than typing '2+2=5'.

Just watch...

JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD

Did that prove the existence of Jesus, his claimed divinity, or any other fact of reality? Nope, it's all just a collection of binary bits stored on the internet. Just just to make sure...

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE

Did that convince you of the 'truth' of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? No? Well you seen then, there's a spiritual issue there.

I understand. 1) I wrote that BB would be unable to do it, not you. I was proved correct. 2) If you prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, I’ll prove to you god exists. There’s a lot on the web about the FSM and I believe the FSM is real and true.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(06-09-2013 03:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 02:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Baloney. Hotter stoves burn skin more. Rapists and paedophiles feel more sexual guilt and conflict that masturbators, etc.

The only way you can even try that argument is to talk about children suffering. And when an atheists says a child is “innocent” that are admitting the moral culpability of adult… wait for it… sinners.

All your quotations are unattributed, making it a pain in the ass to figure out what is a response to what, but this, at least, is responding to a post of mine.

Well; 'responding' is generous - a ludicrous non-sequitor is not really much of an answer. Mentioning children is misleading and irrelevant, as nowhere in the post you quote did I do so. Higher temperatures causing more severe burns is a trivial and irrelevant conclusion. And I am utterly unsure what claiming to know the mind of rapists and pedophiles is supposed to accomplish.

0/3 on relevance. Partial credit for trying.

So, you are saying it's okay for children to suffer? Or isn't it okay to you?

I'm also saying it's appropriate for a rapist or paedophile to suffer. Are you saying you'd prefer an omnipotent god who would ensure that a rapist not suffer? Please explain. Thanks.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 01:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Typing 'Jesus is Lord' does not make it anymore a truth or a fact than typing '2+2=5'.

Just watch...

JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD JESUS IS LORD

Did that prove the existence of Jesus, his claimed divinity, or any other fact of reality? Nope, it's all just a collection of binary bits stored on the internet. Just just to make sure...

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER MAY YOU BE TOUCHED BY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE

Did that convince you of the 'truth' of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? No? Well you seen then, there's a spiritual issue there.

I understand. 1) I wrote that BB would be unable to do it, not you. I was proved correct. 2) If you prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, I’ll prove to you god exists. There’s a lot on the web about the FSM and I believe the FSM is real and true.

Your prediction was worth as much as "the sun will rise in the East", great prophet SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke.

Predicting people to do and act consistent with their past doesn't take much power, troll. Taking credit for predicting the obvious makes it look like you are grasping for straws of credibility, (which of course you should be doing).

Have a nice day, TrollJoke.

Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: That is not the question. There is suffering that serves no purpose. How is that loving? That is the question I'm asking. Again, would you like to change your description of your god?

Don’t you mean, there is suffering that serves no purpose in your subjective opinion? Or perhaps you’d like to give an example? I’ll give one for you:

This thread began with the suffering of children. If you say they are innocent and don’t deserve to suffer, you are implying that humans aren’t innocent, and stand accountable for moral crimes and offenses. Careful, you might lose your membership card at triple A [The Atheist/Agnostic/Apatheist society]!

If however, you say children “just suffer” based on natural reasons, then you are begging the question, because of course a loving doctor would give them medicine and a loving god would take dying children to Heaven. Of course, if you can solve this resolution:

“A loving omnipotent god would not have a utopian Heaven where no one suffers, ever” you’re set.

Quote:We are examining what, from the theist standpoint, he did do, not what he could have done. He's already created a place of eternal suffering, flooded the planet, and demanded a blood sacrifice of his own self. What he 'could' have done is pointless... I'd say he's hit rock bottom. Eternal suffering for an 0-90 year lifespan. Loving?

Um, no one has to go to Hell. You can miss it right now by telling Jesus you’d like to go to Heaven. Lets you out of eternal Hell by asking with one sentence? Loving?

Quote: You REALLY need to get away from the Christian smear-campaign of dumping extra meaning into the word 'Atheist.' I do not believe god exists. I personally cannot know god does not exist as I can't explore every corner of the universe, therefore I claim to be agnostic and atheist. They coexist.

I understand. The Bible says agnostics cannot have an excuse that justifies them before god either. Not even a Christian can have an excuse! Everybody has the same problem, sin/suffering, and the same resolution available. Level field.

Quote:I don't have excuses for disbelief. I have reasons. You haven't, in quite a few posts, come even close to explaining why a god can create pointless suffering and be considered loving. And that's just one of hundreds of things that don't make sense when your religion tries to mingle with reality. But I'm supposed to just grab a bible, ignore all other religions, and chose the bible over reality whenever there's a conflict. Nice, indeed!

We’re on a tangent again with your last paragraph, but I will attempt to respond. While you have reasons in this world to be skeptical and to read the Bible with a healthy, sincere dose of skepticism, you don’t have reasons for believing in a negative that cannot be proven. As a skeptic myself, I hesitate to believe in anything that cannot be proven true or falsified easily.

Nor are you to ignore all other religions. It was after getting saved that I chose to major in Religion and explore all other religions as much as I possibly could. Nor do I choose the Bible over reality. I don’t question reality, I question the Bible. The Bible has some answers and reality has some answers and they mesh rather well.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:46 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Hey, PJ why don't you go play with Marky Mark the Metatron...in traffic.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Anjele's post
10-09-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: There is no such thing as "free will". Actually there is not even such a thing as a *present moment* to make the "free will" decision in.
1. Memories are "formations", not "recordings". Most everything that goes in brains is sub-conscious. Decisions are made BEFORE we are even conscious of them. They are formed on the basis of totally "formed" (not "objectively recorded") memories. In order for "free will" to happen, the memories would need to be 100 % "objective". They aren't. Never will be. They are totally subjective.
2. By the tiime the process of decision making is complete, nano-seconds have elapsed, and the "moment" has pased. What you experience as "present moment" for your "free will" decision is really already in the past. Plank time and all that.
You really should take a science class, Pleasy.
Jebus would be pleased.
BTW. Jebus is Lard.

BB, you may have overstepped your bounds here. 1) Go out and kill someone 2) Take the stand and defend your position on free will just as you’ve done here, with your absolutism and total disregard for any opposing opinion. You didn’t murder anyone, you acted in response to memories and triggers, and science backs your opinion 100% with no dissent 3) Find yourself in jail for life or in a mental institution for insisting you “couldn’t help yourself” when you killed and “had no free will in the matter”

Do you talk to your atheist friends in this matter and insist that if any of them believe in free will they’re 100% wrong? Oh wait, you do, on an Internet forum.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Somebody forgot to read the sign on the door.
It says "The Thinking Atheist",
Not "dumbshits are welcome".

Are you sure you’re not Chas, writing under an alias? Both of you share now this ineffable sense of humor.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(09-09-2013 03:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-09-2013 02:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  For one of a hundred such examples, it was Roman law that a soldier could press a Jew into service, interrupting their daily routine or whatever they were doing, to carry their heavy equipment and etc. up to a mile. Now we have context for Jesus’s statement, “If someone asks you to go with them a mile, go with them two.”

Citation needed. I'm curious, as I've never heard of any forced labour (ie of a non-slave) in ancient Roman law.

Going The Extra Mile, by Greg Williamson © 2007, 2009, http://www.shakinandshinin.org, Retrieved July 25, 2010

The verse is a reference to the practice of "impressment" which, among other things, allowed a Roman soldier to conscript a Jewish native to carry his equipment for one Roman mile (milion = 1,000 paces, about 1,611 yards or 1,473 metres) -- no easy task considering a Roman soldier's backpack could weigh upwards of 100 pounds (45.4 kg). Jesus' point was that his followers must relinquish their individual "rights" in order to advance God's kingdom through self-sacrifice.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:56 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: The number of moons has fuck all to do with my point, and you know it. A being with unlimited power and who actually gave a fuck, would have done better than making this universe.

Gosh, but that sounds like—and don’t hold me to this—a subjective opinion. I’ve patiently responded to many requests that I comprehend how an omnipotent god would omit suffering. Perhaps you will respond to one of my many requests that you explain how he does that while allowing people free will to partake in evil?

Quote:That you can not, or refuse to get this, speaks only of your willful ignorance and abject lack of imagination. You've already shown before that you have this terrible habit of placing limits on your limitless god, because you can't seem to fathom what a limitless god would actually be capable of if it also cared.

You’ve got me there. I know nothing about a god who cares, who loves, who demonstrates agape or self-sacrifice. My god is Allah!

Quote:Regardless of whatever bullshit prerogative you are assuming for your god, if he is omnipotent, then by definition he has the power to accomplish the same goal but WITHOUT the suffering. Therein lies the problem, suffering DOES exist. So either your god lacks the power, lacks the empathy, doesn't exist, or you lack the mental capacity and honesty to fathom such a concept. You are as dense as a brick.

Suffering
-the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.

How about you try arguing that suffering is good? It seems every other sane person recognizes that suffering is bad, that is until you back a deluded god apologists into a corner and they start trying to defend the indefensible. Suffering is bad, and anything that could possibly be accomplished by imposing it purposefully or allowing it, could be accomplished some other suffering-free way by an omnipotent god; by his very definition he has to be able to do so. So once again, he either is not omnipotent, or he doesn't give a fuck.

I’ve given over a dozen examples of how suffering is good in this thread alone. Which of them did you disagree with specifically?

Quote:Bullshit, god could have made us so that we would enjoy such a universe. Try harder.

So for example, we’d eat only ice cream. Then how would we know how delicious it was? I’m waiting…

Telling me to try harder is not a logical or empirical refutation of “In a universe with no suffering, no pain, no discomfort, “pleasure” has no meaning and cannot be enjoyed”. Do you disagree?

Quote: Freewill is impossible with an omniscient god anyways, as we're all just following our predetermined paths in god's plan. It can also be argued that we don't have freewill even now, considering that we don't actively control our own brain chemistry and we live in a deterministic universe. Freewill, or lack thereof, does not save your god concept.

Huh? How does knowing what you’ll do “make” you do something? I “knew” you wouldn’t respond to my questions from my last post, but I asked them anyway. However, it was up to you and not me to make you answer. Do you disagree?

Quote:Thank you for proving, once again, that you have a complete and utter lack of imagination. You 'possibilities' show only how terrible you are at making excuses for an omnipotent being that shouldn't need them if it really existed.

I think rather than “excuses” you are looking for the word “apologetics”. After all, god is hidden from you because you’ve sinned. I’d like to give you reasons to seek god, but it’s still ball in your court. If you want to argue fatalism and say god made you not look for him that’s your choice, but you and I know you are telling an untruth.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-09-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(09-09-2013 10:34 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  
(09-09-2013 02:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  SNIP


I have nothing to lose here on moral grounds. My god is loving and also takes vengeance. My god is compassionate and assigns appropriate accountability. Guns don’t kill people, god kills people. And? So? Let’s say he is worse than 99% of humans as you wrote. That gives you the moral high ground when god judges you? How does that assist you in your time of need?

And if god is amoral as you put it, are you sure you cannot think of a good reason to end a life? Really? Are you sure you cannot think of anything a god might have done that brings you pleasure in life from “goodness”? Really? I don’t believe you.


LOL. I taught on Ezekiel 18 yesterday in church, a chapter-long refutation on this point. Read that chapter-god says he judged individuals, not father-sons.


For one of a hundred such examples, it was Roman law that a soldier could press a Jew into service, interrupting their daily routine or whatever they were doing, to carry their heavy equipment and etc. up to a mile. Now we have context for Jesus’s statement, “If someone asks you to go with them a mile, go with them two.” There are hundreds of such examples of Christian kindnesses and OT mercies to others as a witness. We see this played out in the life and death of MLK, Jr. and many others.


Great! You won’t lose your atheist club card, now. “Don’t leave home without it.” God forbid you might CONSIDER there’s a god, after all. Nonsense, and your need to show such disclaimers shows the atheists have an artificial peer pressure upon the marketplace of ideas here!

Is this what a death rattle sounds like? You keep pawing at the scraps that there may be some good thing, if only one, that is good that comes from suffering. If there is any, and I repeat any, suffering that is meaningless, as you already admitted there is, the point that God created this world with meaningless suffering unravels the idea of a loving god. I am out of practice on these points, as I haven't exercised these skills for almost twenty years. But at this point, I don't have to say anything more, you've said plenty.... and I thank you for that. I won't ever convince you of anything PJ, not one thing. I'm okay with that. Anyone reading this thread to this point can see where we ended. I just wish I was more responsible for the result. Cheers.


Um, as I’ve mentioned, there are over 30 biblical reasons why suffering has positive benefit for Christians! I tried to add to them over a dozen why it’s good for non-Christians on this thread. However, rather than distancing yourself from my responses, perhaps you can give me one empirical, non-philosophical reason why suffering is wrong. If not, then your question as to why an omnipotent god would allow suffering is not a logical question but a philosophical musing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: