Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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27-08-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Those Atheist you refer to don’t believe in "God". They honestly don’t, that's a thing you need to understand.

They do not blame “God” for anything, because “God” does not exist. When an atheist refers to “God” doing “good” or “evil” what they are referring to is not an actual, real, existent god, but Christian’s, or other religious people’s, belief in “God”.

They are referring to those people's concept of "God" in the context of if it were real. You pointed out that atheist have a contradictiory view of "God". They do not. Atheist's view of "God" is that "God" does not exit, and that's all. The contradictory view is based on the contradiction inharent in the belief in a god. That is not a fault an atheist, that's a fault of the believer, and atheists point it out. The contradictory nature of "God" is a flaw in the belief of a Christian "God" that is being pointed out to you. Not a belief of the atheist.

In other words, if “God” were real then these things could be said about “God”...if he were real…but he is not. As a caveat* with an atheist, regardless of whether he or she speaks of “God” as doing something, feeling something, intending something, being either “good” or “evil”, remember they are talking about the religious believers idea of “God”, not an actual real god, as “God” or gods do not exist.

Blaming “God” for the suffering caused by “trauma” induced by other people is not atheist blaming “God” (remember the caveat*). They are blaming the “trauma” cause by those people’s belief in a non-existent “God”. It’s people’s belief in “God” that is the problem. Belief in “God” is a real thing, “God” is not. Belief in "God" has the power to do terrible things in this world. "God" himself does not, because "God" is not an actual thing.

I hear you loud and clear. If this is all so, then what is the point of using a terrible, emotional argument to disabuse spiritual people of their paradigms? If “god” has terrible power in this world, why stoop to our level and say things like “F your god he caused the holocaust and makes infants die and drowned people in a flood?” (Not addressing this to you, just to atheists as a group.)

Because if there is no “god” at all and I accept your monolithic-sized special knowledge as offered, that no god of any kind has ever interacted with any race of beings on any planet in the known universe at any time, then I’d have to indict atheists and apatheists as incredibly catty and immature, when here all along I thought their “f you and f your god” arguments were merely indicative of hatred against a real being.

But if I take all you say as (pardon my expression) the gospel truth, what traumatic belief system are you referring to, please? I’ve cited the countless instances where believers have solace in suffering. Have you never heard a Christian say, “Gosh, if I was an atheist, it sure would be hard to reconcile grandma’s cancer today”. You’ve got to be joking with me… no?
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27-08-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: +1

Brave brave brave brave Sir Robin!

I want to change this thread to "Why do Children Have to Suffer [Genocide at the Hands of the Abrahamic God?]"

"Never!"

"I did not!"

Oh shit I must be going crazy, I'm starting to type like Mark Dreher.... FUCK.

You seem a bit stuck, in terms of I’m working to help against genocide now, along with my fellow Christians who labor on behalf of the Sudan and etc. and you’re rehashing alleged actions of 3,500 years ago. And atheists say Christians aren’t current and relevant? Gee.

If you’re that hard against genocide, what have you done for the Sudan or India and Iraq/Iran lately? Anything?

I’ll repeat my inquiry of you now. If you have some scriptures you want me to peruse and answer you on, I’ll be happy to do so. That would seem more logical of you than your unending “I told you so” tirade.

Thank you.
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27-08-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(27-08-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Those Atheist you refer to don’t believe in "God". They honestly don’t, that's a thing you need to understand.

They do not blame “God” for anything, because “God” does not exist. When an atheist refers to “God” doing “good” or “evil” what they are referring to is not an actual, real, existent god, but Christian’s, or other religious people’s, belief in “God”.

They are referring to those people's concept of "God" in the context of if it were real. You pointed out that atheist have a contradictiory view of "God". They do not. Atheist's view of "God" is that "God" does not exit, and that's all. The contradictory view is based on the contradiction inharent in the belief in a god. That is not a fault an atheist, that's a fault of the believer, and atheists point it out. The contradictory nature of "God" is a flaw in the belief of a Christian "God" that is being pointed out to you. Not a belief of the atheist.

In other words, if “God” were real then these things could be said about “God”...if he were real…but he is not. As a caveat* with an atheist, regardless of whether he or she speaks of “God” as doing something, feeling something, intending something, being either “good” or “evil”, remember they are talking about the religious believers idea of “God”, not an actual real god, as “God” or gods do not exist.

Blaming “God” for the suffering caused by “trauma” induced by other people is not atheist blaming “God” (remember the caveat*). They are blaming the “trauma” cause by those people’s belief in a non-existent “God”. It’s people’s belief in “God” that is the problem. Belief in “God” is a real thing, “God” is not. Belief in "God" has the power to do terrible things in this world. "God" himself does not, because "God" is not an actual thing.

I hear you loud and clear. If this is all so, then what is the point of using a terrible, emotional argument to disabuse spiritual people of their paradigms? If “god” has terrible power in this world, why stoop to our level and say things like “F your god he caused the holocaust and makes infants die and drowned people in a flood?” (Not addressing this to you, just to atheists as a group.)

Because if there is no “god” at all and I accept your monolithic-sized special knowledge as offered, that no god of any kind has ever interacted with any race of beings on any planet in the known universe at any time, then I’d have to indict atheists and apatheists as incredibly catty and immature, when here all along I thought their “f you and f your god” arguments were merely indicative of hatred against a real being.

But if I take all you say as (pardon my expression) the gospel truth, what traumatic belief system are you referring to, please? I’ve cited the countless instances where believers have solace in suffering. Have you never heard a Christian say, “Gosh, if I was an atheist, it sure would be hard to reconcile grandma’s cancer today”. You’ve got to be joking with me… no?

The old "Utilitarian" argument again. Religion is "useful", so it's "justified".
No matter ... whether it's true or not.
Such a crappy , intellectually DISHONEST argument.
A very slippery slope, you're on there.
Children may feel all warm and fuzzy, thinking there is a Santy Claus. Eventually the "truth shall set you free". Not hanging on to (however and whatever "useful") nonsense.

The business of the "ancient angry genocidal god, who required his son to die, so he could feel better, and make right what he created wrong in the first place" is a HYPOTHETICAL god, which *would exist*, which WOULD be required to exist, given your other assertions. It's a "literary" and logical device. A "hypothetical".

I see you're getting nowhere here Pleasy as usual. But keep it up.
It's good to be reminded of how infantile, illogical, and obtuse, real live, real world desperate fundies actually are to eliminate the cognitive dissonances.

Have a deluded life.

Big Grin

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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27-08-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Agreed. Pain, privation, and other forms of suffering arrive from natural causes. Neither your God nor any other causes them. This may have something to do with those gods not existing.

See my response to GirlyMan above if you would. I’m afraid we have a Gordian knot if you want to say god causes something by natural causes without his or our free will. That makes no sense.

Quote: ... as far as I can tell, this is basically you saying, "hey, some of this suffering I can find a silver lining for and say that there is at least some small positive benefit in it." And I won't disagree in general, because most things are beneficial in one way or another if we look hard enough and don't focus on how crappy they are overall. Whether this benefit is WHY they are there in some causal sense, we seem to disagree on. But that's not to say that the suffering itself is a good thing. And in the hypothetical case of an omni-lots Creator deity, it becomes meaningless, because said deity could have prevented the suffering from ever happening while either achieving those same goals, or obviating the need for them. (Sure, the development of ASL is a great human accomplishment, but who would need ASL if the human ear was intelligently designed so that it could never be deafened in the first place, if reproduction were intelligently designed so as to eliminate birth defects preventing the ear from forming properly, etc?)

That isn’t what I was saying. I’d say it the way my wife put it when I told her about the previous thread, “C’mon, hardship is pretty much the only stimulus for anyone’s achievement in anything.” Remember the “necessity is the mother of invention” quote? I’ll ask again on this thread, name anything that is of long-lasting benefit that comes easy and free without suffering. From Christ’s suffering for our salvation to the Bible’s warning that “an inheritance quickly gained is quickly spent” to learning in school, to building bigger biceps to diet and other exercise, etc. there’s always pain.

But again, if I say to god “ASL is awesome but why do we need it in the first place? How come everyone can’t hear?” god will likely say, “Who made man sighted or blind but I? Those who have ears to hear, let them hear…” In other words, every time, without exception, when I throw out hypotheticals to other Christians like “why can’t we all have perfect hearing?” they kind of upbraid me for being a whiny child.

Quote:Kinda incoherent, you might want to proof this section and clarify it. I wouldn't say that the sting of death is lessened by suffering leading up to it, so much as it can become a lesser of evils.

Thanks for that input. I’ll be more specific. My wife mentioned a friend who just passed following a long illness when I mentioned this thread, and she said, “It may sound callous but it’s in part, I know, a relief for him that her suffering has ended and he doesn’t sit and wait for the ball to drop,” so yes, the lesser of two evils…

One more thing. Even the statement “the lesser of two evils” has tremendous ramifications for any debate on the “does good and evil exist?” line of debate resolutions. Promise me you’ll think about that in the context of this discussion.

Quote: Even in a deistic model, a hypothetical creator God would still be responsible for the context which makes suffering possible. If I put three rats in a cage together and decline to feed them, then they will resort to cannibalism or starve. (Possibly both.) If they do eat each other, it will be by their free actions, but free actions in response to, and constrained by, the context I'd placed them in. How much more power would an omnipotent deistic creator have had to, say, make it unnecessary for them to eat at all when they were first created?

In a theistic model with all the omnis attached, a hypothetical God would have even more freedom. Miracles, for example. If food spontaneously appears in my pantry, I would be able to react to it or not according to my own free will. My free will would not be diminished. But I'd also be fairly immune to starving.

Suffering and pain is not a subset of free will. There is some overlap, to be sure. But some types of suffering are not the product of free choice -- consider a child born with a painful, terminal condition, for example. Where is the free will that caused that?

Frankly, the question of free will is more your schtick than mine. We view the world through different lenses, and I spend a lot less energy than you seem to focusing on the subject of free will. I'm not entirely sure what it means, and the more people define it, the fuzzier it becomes.

I’m sorry it’s fuzzy. God has free will and chose to give man free will, too. Free will is the real Prometheus fire and Pandora box when man has it. Fortunately, there is ultimate accountability in Heaven or Hell. And we’re going to have to discuss suffering as a subset of free will in your example of a child because it has to be god’s choice on this thread or man’s (like the parents were warned in genetic counseling and had a child regardless).

PS. No tithing Christian has ever starved to death. Seriously. Free will again.

Quote: ... soooo not getting what you're saying here. The caveat needs to be asserted that an atheist will only blame God for something either in a hypothetical discussion, or when talking about the concept of God at large in society rather than any actual entity. Atheists don't blame God for anything outside of fiction or a hypothetical, just like (most) atheists don't blame Voldermort for anything. I can't figure out whether you get that or not, and if not, you need to take a step back and do some remedial study on what it means to be an atheist in the first place. It's so basic, I just want to assume that you do know it, but you consistently act as if you don't, right down to the arguments you present to this forum. I'm starting to question whether you're in so deep that you can't even wrap your brain around what it would mean for someone to not believe that any god exists. But in any case, with that caveat in place, your objection becomes... almost a whine of "why are you so critical?" I don't get where you're going with it.

Oh, I get that 100%. Just let me please rephrase your “whine of why atheists are critical” to “whine of why atheists constantly whine”.

Or would you not take a typical post on this forum like “f god if he f-ing makes f-ing children f-ing die of horrible diseases and f you twice pj” as “a gentlemanly discourse in our marketplace of ideas and hypotheticals” and not “whining”?
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27-08-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: I find the following line from Bob Dylan's Stuck Inside of Mobile With the Memphis Blues Again to be appropriate.

"And here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice"

Great way to deflect important issues like whether Hell exists, ultimate justice exists and whether children starve to death for reasons or needlessly. Way to go again. You Only Live (think) Twice? It’s worth thinking about these things 1,000 times if it motivates you to help a needy child instead of sitting on your duff and posting here. My family supports three overseas to get them out of poverty and the kids into school. You?

I mean, grow up IMHO. There are nice people here who are actually thinking through the issues, and most of them are freethinkers. But every time that little skeptic in me starts to get out, people like you shove him inside again. Way to keep me being a born again Christian.
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27-08-2013, 01:28 PM
Re: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
What is necessary suffering? Who qualified that concept.

"Love is hot, Truth is molten!"
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27-08-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote:The old "Utilitarian" argument again. Religion is "useful", so it's "justified".
No matter ... whether it's true or not.
Such a crappy , intellectually DISHONEST argument.
A very slippery slope, you're on there.
Children may feel all warm and fuzzy, thinking there is a Santy Claus. Eventually the "truth shall set you free". Not hanging on to (however and whatever "useful") nonsense.

Bucky, you haven’t remembered my personal testimony. After several months of reading and research, I came to Christ as an adult not because of “it works” but because I found Christianity to be absolutely true.

By the way, I also commend you for dealing with all of life’s trials through the usual channels such as doctors. But when the medicines don’t work, “who you gonna call?” Not “Ghostbusters”! As I’ve put it before to atheists, when MY grandma is sick and the doctors can’t help, should I pray to YOU for aid?

The real answer is an emphatic “No!” because there’s NOTHING you can do. And that IS true.

Quote:The business of the "ancient angry genocidal god, who required his son to die, so he could feel better, and make right what he created wrong in the first place" is a HYPOTHETICAL god, which *would exist*, which WOULD be required to exist, given your other assertions. It's a "literary" and logical device. A "hypothetical".

I hear your invective, I do. Just be sure to rephrase it to the more biblical “Sin exacts a heavy toll so it was exacted on One who could bear it.” Jesus said of His passion, “I’ve EARNESTLY DESIRED to eat this last meal with you…” Now that’s love.

No, sin is very bad and its payment most costly.

Quote:I see you're getting nowhere here Pleasy as usual. But keep it up.
It's good to be reminded of how infantile, illogical, and obtuse, real live, real world desperate fundies actually are to eliminate the cognitive dissonances.

Have a deluded life.

There’s no dissonance here. We both commend your bravery at dealing with marriage, sex, finances, and ultimately, death, with all the modern tools at our command. Unfortunately unlike The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon and Google will not answer all your questions in this plane of existence!

PS. If you knew a being who had every answer to every test written by man before each was written, and you didn’t want to study His cliff notes, you’d be responsible for all your own grades. And that would make you… wait for it… clinically insane… or an intense narcissist.

Good luck living in MTV’s “The Real World” without God. I wish for you something much better and more fulfilling!
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27-08-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: What is necessary suffering? Who qualified that concept.

Oh, it was me. I’m challenging readers of this post again to explain what wonderful life benefits exist to those who don’t work/suffer to earn them?

Your hypothetical “But god could have given me enough money to eat without me having to have a job!” is just that, a hypothetical.

Therefore, our resolution must read, “An omnipotent god is cruel in allowing suffering” and my counter-resolution is, “A omniscient god knows exactly how to limit suffering and use suffering as an educational tool”.
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27-08-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(27-08-2013 01:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What is necessary suffering? Who qualified that concept.

PJ himself, he knows there is no rational answer to the Problem of Evil if one presupposes a god. If such a being exists as described (ie able to affect the world in any way regardless of the laws of nature) then either it is evil or incompetent for evil to exist.

This problem is only in the case of a theistic universe however, for in this universe pain and suffering exist because of natural selection and the nature of the universe. Only when you have the Ego to assume that everything was made just so 1 species on 1 planet in a backwater of 1 small portion of the Universe do you have to square this circle.

In all his wailing and whining PJ has never come close to a response to this and I doubt he will now, if he even responds to this post.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-08-2013, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 02:06 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(27-08-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I hear you loud and clear. …
Okay, you say you hear me loud and clear, but clearly you don’t. So I’ll reiterate.

(27-08-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If “god” has terrible power in this world, why stoop to our level and say things like “F your god he caused the holocaust and makes infants die and drowned people in a flood?” (Not addressing this to you, just to atheists as a group.)

(26-08-2013 04:44 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Those Atheist you refer to don’t believe in "God". They honestly don’t, that's a thing you need to understand.

They do not blame “God” for anything, because “God” does not exist. When an atheist refers to “God” doing “good” or “evil” what they are referring to is not an actual, real, existent god, but Christian’s, or other religious people’s, belief in “God”.

Atheist's view of "God" is that "God" does not exist, and that's all. …
(26-08-2013 04:44 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  In other words, if “God” were real then these things could be said about “God”...if he were real…but he is not. As a caveat* with an atheist, regardless of whether he or she speaks of “God” as doing something, feeling something, intending something, being either “good” or “evil”, remember they are talking about the religious believers idea of “God”, not an actual real god, as “God” or gods do not exist.
(26-08-2013 04:44 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Blaming “God” for the suffering caused by “trauma” induced by other people is not atheist blaming God (remember the caveat*). They are blaming the “trauma” cause by those people’s belief in a non-existent “God”. It’s people’s belief in “God” that is the problem. Belief in “God” is a real thing, “God” is not.

(27-08-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If “god” has terrible power in this world...

(26-08-2013 04:44 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Atheist's view of "God" is that "God" does not exit, and that's all...
Belief in "God" has the power to do terrible things in this world. "God" himself does not, because "God" is not an actual thing.


For some reason I think I've already explain this to you.

Perhaps if you actually read what is written, and take some time to think about it rather then rapid fire out your responces to everyone you might see that you are asking questions that were already answered in the very same post you are asking about.

...
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