Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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10-09-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(09-09-2013 11:51 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  At St. Michael's elementary school, the children in grade 5 were putting on a play.
One of the children played the part of god as the other children read their lines.
A couple of the boys in rehearsal had argued about who was going to do the prayer.
In rehearsal the teacher had stepped in and selected one of two, but it didn't go as planned during the live show.

As the boys fought on stage in front of all the parents, a teacher began to run out on stage to break up the fight, but was stopped by the young student who was playing god. The young student screamed at the teacher, making more of a commotion than the two young boys fighting.

As it happened, one boy pushed the other boy off the stage, causing him to fall, hitting his neck on the ground with a thud.
The boy ended up paralyzed and in the end, the teacher had to ask the young child who was playing god WHY he had stopped her from breaking up the fight.

The young boy said "In rehearsal, neither of them believed I was god, so I wanted to see them suffer. That's why I stopped you. One of them will suffer in body from being paralyzed. The other will suffer mentally from the pain he caused the other boy when he lashed out in anger."

Teacher "And you think by doing this, you will make them believe that you are god"
Boy "It's not my actions that will make them believe, it's what I don't do, that will cause them to have faith"

I agree that it is indeed ludicrous for a five-year-old to play god. Do you agree an omnipotent being can play god?
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10-09-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 12:04 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 02:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I’ve given over a dozen reasons for suffering, but the atheists here won’t even admit it’s good when a paedophile suffers! That’s a moral compass mis-heading, isn’t it?

Please summarize. I decline to read through your extensive posts. Point form will be fine. And what gives you the right to decide when a fellow human being should suffer ? The legal system is supposed to deal with paedophiles, but it sounds like you think they should be burned at stake ?

Quote:The logical fallacy you guys are making? That you argue with a straight face that a loving god doesn’t make a Heaven when suffering on Earth is compensated for?

Resolved: An omnipotent, loving god makes people suffer than die and go to the dust forever. Ridiculous on its face.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I asked if all suffering has a purpose in your view of the world, since you had already implied that some suffering was meaningless. If it is meaningless, then de facto, by the standard meaning of the word, God is evil. Heaven and hell don't enter into it.

Carry on weaseling.

Rather than summarize my dozen points, I'll give you one to counter to start. Name a significant educational, sports or other acheivement that was enacted without a price being paid (suffering)...?

And yes, I would like to see paedophiles imprisoned for their crimes. But to be consistent, aren't you required to insist that they be rehabilitated elsewhere since you don't want them to suffer loss of income, loneliness, guilt, etc. in prison? Do you currently ask that all criminals everywhere be pardoned based on what you'd demand to happen in this universe if you were god?

All suffering does have a purpose in my worldview. Are you willing to admit that Heaven and Hell give all of it purpose? If not, without Heaven and Hell, are you willing to admit that much of suffering has purpose?
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10-09-2013, 02:08 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 03:41 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm confused by PJ.. Doesn't he believe Adam and Eve had no suffering in the garden of Eden?

I've never heard a proclamation that Adam and Eve had no pleasure in the garden. If Eden is pleasureless, why do people desire that ideal destination.

Adam suffered loneliness and incompleteness in the Garden. Eve was made. No Christians desire to revisit Eden, only, perhaps the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. Smile

Since no one has seen the pleasures god has prepared in Heaven, nor can even imagine them, it is a heresy to say Eden is Heaven. I forgive your heresy. Smile

You certainly had me there, by the way. It took fully 0.4 seconds for me to counter your proposal by doing what I almost always do--ask myself if the Bible had more to say on the issue. Smile
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10-09-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 01:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-09-2013 01:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand. 1) I wrote that BB would be unable to do it, not you. I was proved correct. 2) If you prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, I’ll prove to you god exists. There’s a lot on the web about the FSM and I believe the FSM is real and true.

Your prediction was worth as much as "the sun will rise in the East", great prophet SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke.

Predicting people to do and act consistent with their past doesn't take much power, troll. Taking credit for predicting the obvious makes it look like you are grasping for straws of credibility, (which of course you should be doing).

Have a nice day, TrollJoke.

Tongue

Um, to date, my prediction is 100% true about you!
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10-09-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 01:46 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Hey, PJ why don't you go play with Marky Mark the Metatron...in traffic.

Didn't I see both Marky Mark and Metatron at DragonCon last week with Shatner? Peace and long life.
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10-09-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 02:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(10-09-2013 03:41 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm confused by PJ.. Doesn't he believe Adam and Eve had no suffering in the garden of Eden?

I've never heard a proclamation that Adam and Eve had no pleasure in the garden. If Eden is pleasureless, why do people desire that ideal destination.

Adam suffered loneliness and incompleteness in the Garden. Eve was made. No Christians desire to revisit Eden, only, perhaps the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. Smile

Since no one has seen the pleasures god has prepared in Heaven, nor can even imagine them, it is a heresy to say Eden is Heaven. I forgive your heresy. Smile

You certainly had me there, by the way. It took fully 0.4 seconds for me to counter your proposal by doing what I almost always do--ask myself if the Bible had more to say on the issue. Smile

Wrong. Why would Adam have to "suffer" anything BEFORE the "fall" ? No Christian theologian would buy that. Kind of puts the lie to all your salvation bunk. You just make up shit, and you are obviously incompetent at your job.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-09-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 02:09 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(10-09-2013 01:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your prediction was worth as much as "the sun will rise in the East", great prophet SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke.

Predicting people to do and act consistent with their past doesn't take much power, troll. Taking credit for predicting the obvious makes it look like you are grasping for straws of credibility, (which of course you should be doing).

Have a nice day, TrollJoke.

Tongue

Um, to date, my prediction is 100% true about you!

I know. You said I was possessed. Possessed of what, you didn't mention.
Not too hard to predict crap.
Weeping
No Jew thought they were going to either heaven or Eden.
Neither did Jebus.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-09-2013, 02:19 PM
 
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Let me try with this, PJ.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4)

So, there will be no pain nor sorrow, therefore there will be no more sin. (As some apologists say, people in heaven will be able forever not to sin.) So, they will still have free will, but without an ability to sin. Why weren't we created that way initially?

You can respond as usual, that we must experience evil to know good, blah, blah... What about heaven? People will therefore need to retain their memory of this life in order to keep appreciating the bliss of heaven, but as we know, when we experience good things, we tend to forget about the bad ones (or worse, we become complacent). In an eternity of bliss (1,000,000+ years), we would forget about 70 years of sin on Earth. Would God need to remind us or what? But anyway, the only way for us to retain memory from this world in the next one would be if God replanted it in our brains, because very soon after death, the brain completely shuts down. So if he can intervene in such a way, why couldn't he have created us without an ability to sin? Both actions involve tampering with our minds. "Wiping away tears from our eyes" also does. So what's the difference?

As for suffering and death... About 1/5 of zygotes are never planted in the uterus, and die. If those are souls in the Christian sense, they are immediately spawned into the next life (probably in hell), so what's the purpose of that? What's the God's purpose of a child being born in some wasteland and dying from hunger before age 3? Who learns from that? Nobody. It's meaningless suffering, consistent with a naturalistic worldview, but not with a benevolent God.

Not to mention that you haven't yet provided a case for eternal hell. I sincerely hope that you won't run away from my topic about the second coming too.
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10-09-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Don’t you mean, there is suffering that serves no purpose in your subjective opinion? Or perhaps you’d like to give an example?

I'm claiming victory on this point. You can't provide anything to the contrary. You have not been able to demonstrate reasons for pre-birth fatalities, terminally ill children, and numerous other forms of suffering. Quite the opposite. You've had to 'reword' many arguments and metaphors to make them more manageable, demonstrating your own cognitive dissonance in the process. So please, continue to state that the hundreds of thousands of miscarriages, ill children, etc. are simply subjective suffering and actually have a purpose... and then not state what that purpose is.

I'm putting this point on the back burner until you state clearly, using MY examples, what the purpose is of that suffering (other than that's just god).

Your silence on redefining your god is also noted. Your god is no longer loving. I stand by that point as fact until better proof to the contrary is provided.

(10-09-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  “A loving omnipotent god would not have a utopian Heaven where no one suffers, ever” you’re set.

They figured that out when first trying to promote Christianity. Thus the addition of an afterlife in the later stages of your religion. Prove heaven. Presupposition holds no weight here.

(10-09-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Um, no one has to go to Hell. You can miss it right now by telling Jesus you’d like to go to Heaven. Lets you out of eternal Hell by asking with one sentence? Loving?

People do have to go to hell. Your god foresaw their fates before he created hell. They were doomed from the moment he created them. Loving?

(10-09-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand. The Bible says agnostics cannot have an excuse that justifies them before god either. Not even a Christian can have an excuse! Everybody has the same problem, sin/suffering, and the same resolution available. Level field.

And other books say other things... more presupposition.

(10-09-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  As a skeptic myself, I hesitate to believe in anything that cannot be proven true or falsified easily.

You demonstrate otherwise.

(10-09-2013 01:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The Bible has some answers and reality has some answers and they mesh rather well.

I hear the same from other religions. It's amazing all these gods are able to coexist.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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10-09-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(10-09-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  So, you are saying it's okay for children to suffer? Or isn't it okay to you?

In no possible context or grace of interpretation could I be construed to be saying that.

Not relevant besides.

(10-09-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm also saying it's appropriate for a rapist or paedophile to suffer.

I'd say its appropriate to make sure they cannot inflict suffering on others.

(10-09-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Are you saying you'd prefer an omnipotent god who would ensure that a rapist not suffer?

You're adorably, idiotically fatuous.

No, I'm not saying that. The eternal dilemma with you is thus: either you know I am not saying that, in which case your facetious dishonesty is stunningly limitless, or you do not know, in which case you are strikingly incapable of comprehending what you are reading.

Please explain. Thanks.

(10-09-2013 01:49 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Going The Extra Mile, by Greg Williamson © 2007, 2009, http://www.shakinandshinin.org, Retrieved July 25, 2010

That is not a source. That is referring to an entire website (the specific section is this), which itself does not cite its historical sources.

PS: you are still quoting everyone without attributing the quotes. This is terrible form.

... this is my signature!
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