Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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16-09-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Reltzik:

Quote: I wouldn't say that altruism is entirely in spite of feelings. Averting psychological harm and promoting happiness is worthwhile. And again, I'm not pressing a claim on what God's altruism should be based on. Just whether an omnipotent, omniscient, loving God is possible given the evidence of suffering.

I think so, since suffering has positive and meaningful results and seems to be often if not always caused for good reasons, too.

Quote: It's not outside the thread. You originally brought Hell up in the context of a justification for inflicting suffering. Suffering would be, you said, necessary to warn people of Hell. Yet the system of damning people to Hell for their sins (and, for most Christians, Hell itself) would be a construct of God, would it not? I've presented three counterarguments to your original attempt to depict suffering as necessary to warn of Hell. First, it isn't a good warning.

Why not? Is there a better way to understand what Coca-Cola tastes like than drinking Coca-Cola? The Bible says, “Taste and see”.

Quote:Second, methods of warning without suffering, or with less suffering, might have been made. For example (though again, my inability to come up with an example would indicate nothing), people could have an instinctive understanding of suffering without actually experiencing it, just as we are born with the instinctive ability to recognize a human face.

See above. And your inability to come up with an example does imply that not creating suffering necessitates creating something that is not a human.

Quote:And third, which is on-point given the original context in which you brought Hell into this discussion, is why God would choose a system in which people suffer from Hell. Whether God would have had alternatives and, if so, whether God would still be describable as loving for not taking them. You can't plausibly claim that the existence of suffering is necessitated as a warning of later suffering, without prompting a question about what necessitates that later suffering and, in turn, the suffering you would have us believe is therefore needed as a warning. That's turtles all the way down.

Sorry, I thought it to be outside the scope of this thread to provide a Christian justification for the necessity of eternal punishment.

Quote: I don't maintain that all suffering is meaningless. I do regard it as a bad thing, gross, but depending on circumstances and necessary tradeoffs it might be a good thing net, for many of the reasons you've proposed. The problem is that the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient being would negate those meaninges and benefits, by offering an avenue for detaching the benefits from the suffering that they would otherwise require.

Then let me restate. A good god would cause suffering. Does that help?

As for the rest, thank you for addressing it offline with me. It is sincerely appreciated.
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16-09-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(14-09-2013 12:43 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 02:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When did I say or imply god chose your path? I said god chooses to end your life. We aren’t even discussing the same thing. Free will is choosing the path. You can even CHOOSE to go to church tomorrow and stop being an atheist but die tonight. You still had a CHOICE.

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God chooses every 3.6 seconds to end a child's life due to starvation. Usually most are under the age of five. (http://www.unicef.org/mdg/poverty.html)

Every day 30,000 children (http://www.unicef.org/media/media_21423.html) will die of preventable disease that your glorious and definitely most humble and caring of human life deity has given to them to end their short period of life here. Do those diseases kill them at least in a humane way?

Nope. Pheumonia which is a lung infection that causes coughing, a fever, and difficult time breathing. Definitely a caring God that says he loves us so much would give children that. Also diarrhea, malaria which gives fevers, chills and is a flu like illness, AID's and Malnutrition.

Now let us talk about free will. It does not exist and is much more limited than you might believe. You can't freely choose to fly which is nonsense and I believe you understand that but lets go further and into more complicated things. What about a person who rapes or murders another? Did God value their free will over the victim of these crimes? Did these people freely choose to be murdered or raped? Now you will definitely say its free will! Well then doesn't the victim have the same free will as the murderer? If not? Why does the murderer get his free will over the other? Why does God defend the more disgusting of the two?





Now you of course will say that God does intervene! But only sometimes. How even more ridiculous is that. Not even people of your similar sect will be defended any more than Atheists, Jews, or Muslim's.

You have the free will to choose to believe in factual evidence but most likely you believe in God for reasons of wanting to believe in heaven because you fear your life ending here or want the unity the church provides. You want to believe not for factual reasons but because you simply want to. Its that simple and thats fine but I want a real reason to believe. Your belief is the same as those of the Hindu's, Ancient Greeks and Romans, and those involving Thor and Ra. They were once believed fervently like yours they were just eventually replaced and sometimes by definitely violent means.

(13-09-2013 02:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are clearly confusing free will with omnipotence. One is granted to people.

Again, if your atheist friend chooses to shoot you dead, his free will was more assertive.

And that free will doesn't exist as stated above. If your Christian friend decided to shoot you it apparently is more assertive? Oh so free will basically doesn't exist and sometimes yours is better and theirs is better. You just stated yourself we all have free will? We apparently don't if some is more assertive than others. That simply defeats the purpose of free will, no? That makes it a useless statement to say then if we have free will it can be overridden quite simply. You just proved it doesn't exist and if it does exist some people have higher priorities to God like the murderers and Rapists and if you say God doesn't agree with those actions watch the video above.

In the end I don't know how you justify this beings actions. You say he is all knowing and if he does he would have known how flawed, broken, disgusting and degrading his apparent holy book would be and yet he still decided to keep it that way without improving or telling us to continually get better. We had to do that on our own. With the Bible being used on both sides for and against women rights, for and against slavery, and now against homosexuals. You can use it to justify a whole sleuth of things and yet God who was apparently all knowing didn't see how humans would continually divide and react in the future and kill each other because they apparently both held the right view.

You say God is all good and yet you need to reiterate that to us and yourself. God is good? Why do you have to tell me that why don't we just see that God is good or have proof of the good things he has done? Instead he ordered numerous battles, slaughtering babies which you say is justified for some ugly reason, flooding the planet of not just human life but all life in general which is insane since he could have just given us all a heart attack but decides to completely eradicate the world(Of course there is no evidence so that is good) and of course God has rules on owning slaves, killing your wife if she is not a virgin on her wedding night and killing unruly children. What a loving God I should totally worship. I didn't have a problem believing this God a long time ago because I did not know these things. Now I know and can't believe a deity could justify those actions on people he apparently loves so much? I believe my concept of love is much more forgiving than his concept of love will ever be based on the Bible even with his sacrifice which wasn't really a sacrifice because he sacrificed himself to himself and knew he would come back alive which nullifies the entire process.

I am not saying God could have done these things for good reasons and he could have explained but you will use the excuse humans were too dumb to think like him. If God is what you say he is and is all knowing, all powerful and good. He would have at least definitely found a way, and if that, would go even further to avoid the needless killings and gain even more followers through peace instead he did it through war.

You live in a fortunate place living in a sheltered life not seeing the horrors of the outside world. As someone studying everything about humans from our religions to our cultures to what we eat and how we understand things. It pains me consistently from what I see. I see a lot of death and destruction but there is good but I don't see it come from God. It comes from those people willing to do good and change things. They may have a different God than you so if so how do they succeed in doing this? Do they do this alone because they want to? I believe so but if a murderer kills them at least God protected the murderers free will rather than the person trying to commit in doing good.

At least that much right?




The long and the short here is clearly that you feel that children dying is wrong. So let's do several things together:

*I'll leave "but they go to Heaven!" out of this

*You'll tell me why killing children is wrong--if suffering is wrong, and children stop suffering when they die--and there is nothing and no Heaven or Hell after death--you'll tell me why god (or with no god, natural forces like genetics or human forces like euthanasia) killing children is wrong

Thanks!
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16-09-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 01:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 01:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  D'you really not get it?

An omnipotent being can do ANYTHING. Do you know what anything means? It means that it is not bound by what you or I can imagine, nor by our understanding of the present universe and how it works, nor by any human characteristics we attribute it. It means anything.

(or is God only omnipotent and omniscient some of the time, and limited by human minds the rest? I must've missed that memo)


I've said it before, and I'll say it again, since it apparently bears repeating... Drinking Beverage

The faithful show a staggering lack of imagination.

Funny, BB accused me of the polar opposite! Pick one.
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16-09-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(15-09-2013 04:37 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 02:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  So, you now have Israel being formed to bring back Israel to god?

How is it anymore absurd than your alternate explanation, that God is his own suffering servant? Drinking Beverage

(13-09-2013 02:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There is a reason to doubt, since I quoted Isaiah 49 and your quotations were written by different authors.

I thought the Bible was "uniquely consistent throughout its 66 books written in 1,500+ years, blah, blah..."

(13-09-2013 02:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There's more if we want to talk about Jesus being one with Israel, or fulfilling "Israel" (Prince of God) or about other non-nations (humans) benefiting from the same Hebrew phrases.

No, thanks. I think I've had enough of this. Bangin

I follow. But rather than "I've had enough of this" why not just reply, "I was wrong about the text and the word servant."
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16-09-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 01:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  For each of your four original objections, I underscored the folly of proving self-evident things people who love believe and THEN gave my reasonings/justifications.

It's precious that you think you proved anything.

(16-09-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Again, if you have alternatives as to how your imaginary sky god can make a world without suffering when:

Okay, that? That I laughed at.
Thumbsup

(16-09-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *If there’s only pleasure and its absence, the absence would be called suffering by its creatures

*If there’s level pleasure there would be boredom

Restating the same pointless assertions doesn't make them true.

Again we fall back on the age-old dilemma. Either you don't realize how asinine such a non-response is, or you are well aware of it and just don't care.

An irrelevant assertion based only what you feel in your gut is as relevant as what I'm currently feeling in mine: piss and wind.

(16-09-2013 01:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I’m all ears. But the atheists on this thread are more guilty of a “god in the gaps” then I’ve heard any Christian use since you keep saying how an omniscient being COULD do something without giving any simple, logical EXAMPLES.

Nope.

D'you really not get it?

An omnipotent being can do ANYTHING. Do you know what anything means? It means that it is not bound by what you or I can imagine, nor by our understanding of the present universe and how it works, nor by any human characteristics we attribute it. It means anything.

(or is God only omnipotent and omniscient some of the time, and limited by human minds the rest? I must've missed that memo)

1. I'm glad you liked my sky god bit. I thought it was funny, too.

2. If an omnipotent being can do ANYTHING, can an omnipotent being make a good universe with suffering in it? Examples, please.
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16-09-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 01:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *You'll tell me why killing children is wrong--if suffering is wrong, and children stop suffering when they die--and there is nothing and no Heaven or Hell after death--you'll tell me why god (or with no god, natural forces like genetics or human forces like euthanasia) killing children is wrong

Thanks!


The starving to death while parasites feast on their eyes, that is unnecessary suffering stacked on top of everything else. Their lives are so bad that death is a kindness to them, as it does end their suffering. That your god placed them in a position to be born, struggle, and live a short life of almost endless pain? That is cruel and capacious on a scale that almost cannot be comprehended. It's bad enough when things like this happen in a naturalistic universe, but in one with a magical all powerful and supposedly caring sky daddy? His inaction, his complete inability to give a fuck, by either doing something obvious to fix the situation or letting us know why he isn't doing something, is an embarrassment and an affront to humanity. That you continue to believe in and defend this being against all reasons and evidence speaks only of how decomposed your own capacity for rational thought is, and just how crooked your moral compass has become in your defense of the indefensible.

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16-09-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 01:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2. If an omnipotent being can do ANYTHING, can an omnipotent being make a good universe with suffering in it? Examples, please.


If we grant you that, then we're back at square one. Once you allow magical explanations, the sky is the limit. So now you're back to trying to provide compelling evidence for the existence of your god, which you have consistently failed to do. We still have a world of suffering, and none of it provides evidence for your god. Congrats, you're entire thread is a waste of time. Drinking Beverage

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16-09-2013, 02:22 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: The starving to death while parasites feast on their eyes that is unnecessary suffering stacked on top of everything else. Their lives are so bad that death is a kindness to them, as it does end their suffering. That your god placed them in a position to be born, struggle, and live a short life of almost endless pain? That is cruel and capacious on a scale that almost cannot be comprehended. It's bad enough when things like this happen in a naturalistic universe, but in one with a magical all powerful and supposedly caring sky daddy? His inaction, his complete inability to give a fuck, by either doing something obvious to fix the situation or letting us know why he isn't doing something, is an embarrassment and an affront to humanity. That you continue to believe in and defend this being against all reasons and evidence speaks only of how decomposed your own capacity for rational thought is, and just how crooked your moral compass has become in your defense of the indefensible.

I would tend to agree with much of this post. So, to be consistent, since the suffering of the young bothers you so much, as it does me, is there something inherently wrong with killing a young child with cancer. Not “god” but a person doing the euthanasia.

Sorry for not being more clear.

Quote:we grant you that, then we're back at square one. Once you allow magical explanations, the sky is the limit. So now you're back to trying to provide compelling evidence for the existence of your god, which you have consistently failed to do. We still have a world of suffering, and none of it provides evidence for your god. Congrats, you're entire thread is a waste of time.

I don’t allow for magical explanations, which is why I’m still waiting for your hypothetical example of how a world without suffering doesn’t lead to boredom with pleasure or dissatisfaction with the absence of pleasure.

In other words, can you give an example that isn’t your imaginary sky god?
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16-09-2013, 03:56 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2013 04:42 PM by ClydeLee.)
Re: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
So PJ now wants examples of other universes with an omnipotent being doing something.

I'm not sure lack of imagination is purely the answer. There seems to be inability to grasp simple concepts.

Here's am answer anyway... Candy Land. In Candy Land the kids eat all the candy they want and don't get unhealthy/fat... There's free will to pick any candy they so desire and I see no suffering or pain... And it doesn't seem to limit joy of pleasure from trying 1 candy to the next candy.

Do you not see that an omnipotent being could create that universe?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-09-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 01:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I think so, since suffering has positive and meaningful results and seems to be often if not always caused for good reasons, too.

I know what you mean. Torture, rape, burning, starving, freezing, crippling disability and disease is usually an important part of a healthy, positive life experience.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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