Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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16-09-2013, 04:39 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 04:25 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 01:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I think so, since suffering has positive and meaningful results and seems to be often if not always caused for good reasons, too.

I know what you mean. Torture, rape, burning, starving, freezing, crippling disability and disease is usually an important part of a healthy, positive life experience.

Of course.

God is perfect.
God made them.
Therefore, they are perfect.

QED.

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16-09-2013, 07:08 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2013 08:06 PM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 01:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(14-09-2013 12:43 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  [Image: kevincarter%20klein.jpg]

God chooses every 3.6 seconds to end a child's life due to starvation. Usually most are under the age of five. (http://www.unicef.org/mdg/poverty.html)

Every day 30,000 children (http://www.unicef.org/media/media_21423.html) will die of preventable disease that your glorious and definitely most humble and caring of human life deity has given to them to end their short period of life here. Do those diseases kill them at least in a humane way?

Nope. Pheumonia which is a lung infection that causes coughing, a fever, and difficult time breathing. Definitely a caring God that says he loves us so much would give children that. Also diarrhea, malaria which gives fevers, chills and is a flu like illness, AID's and Malnutrition.

Now let us talk about free will. It does not exist and is much more limited than you might believe. You can't freely choose to fly which is nonsense and I believe you understand that but lets go further and into more complicated things. What about a person who rapes or murders another? Did God value their free will over the victim of these crimes? Did these people freely choose to be murdered or raped? Now you will definitely say its free will! Well then doesn't the victim have the same free will as the murderer? If not? Why does the murderer get his free will over the other? Why does God defend the more disgusting of the two?





Now you of course will say that God does intervene! But only sometimes. How even more ridiculous is that. Not even people of your similar sect will be defended any more than Atheists, Jews, or Muslim's.

You have the free will to choose to believe in factual evidence but most likely you believe in God for reasons of wanting to believe in heaven because you fear your life ending here or want the unity the church provides. You want to believe not for factual reasons but because you simply want to. Its that simple and thats fine but I want a real reason to believe. Your belief is the same as those of the Hindu's, Ancient Greeks and Romans, and those involving Thor and Ra. They were once believed fervently like yours they were just eventually replaced and sometimes by definitely violent means.


And that free will doesn't exist as stated above. If your Christian friend decided to shoot you it apparently is more assertive? Oh so free will basically doesn't exist and sometimes yours is better and theirs is better. You just stated yourself we all have free will? We apparently don't if some is more assertive than others. That simply defeats the purpose of free will, no? That makes it a useless statement to say then if we have free will it can be overridden quite simply. You just proved it doesn't exist and if it does exist some people have higher priorities to God like the murderers and Rapists and if you say God doesn't agree with those actions watch the video above.

In the end I don't know how you justify this beings actions. You say he is all knowing and if he does he would have known how flawed, broken, disgusting and degrading his apparent holy book would be and yet he still decided to keep it that way without improving or telling us to continually get better. We had to do that on our own. With the Bible being used on both sides for and against women rights, for and against slavery, and now against homosexuals. You can use it to justify a whole sleuth of things and yet God who was apparently all knowing didn't see how humans would continually divide and react in the future and kill each other because they apparently both held the right view.

You say God is all good and yet you need to reiterate that to us and yourself. God is good? Why do you have to tell me that why don't we just see that God is good or have proof of the good things he has done? Instead he ordered numerous battles, slaughtering babies which you say is justified for some ugly reason, flooding the planet of not just human life but all life in general which is insane since he could have just given us all a heart attack but decides to completely eradicate the world(Of course there is no evidence so that is good) and of course God has rules on owning slaves, killing your wife if she is not a virgin on her wedding night and killing unruly children. What a loving God I should totally worship. I didn't have a problem believing this God a long time ago because I did not know these things. Now I know and can't believe a deity could justify those actions on people he apparently loves so much? I believe my concept of love is much more forgiving than his concept of love will ever be based on the Bible even with his sacrifice which wasn't really a sacrifice because he sacrificed himself to himself and knew he would come back alive which nullifies the entire process.

I am not saying God could have done these things for good reasons and he could have explained but you will use the excuse humans were too dumb to think like him. If God is what you say he is and is all knowing, all powerful and good. He would have at least definitely found a way, and if that, would go even further to avoid the needless killings and gain even more followers through peace instead he did it through war.

You live in a fortunate place living in a sheltered life not seeing the horrors of the outside world. As someone studying everything about humans from our religions to our cultures to what we eat and how we understand things. It pains me consistently from what I see. I see a lot of death and destruction but there is good but I don't see it come from God. It comes from those people willing to do good and change things. They may have a different God than you so if so how do they succeed in doing this? Do they do this alone because they want to? I believe so but if a murderer kills them at least God protected the murderers free will rather than the person trying to commit in doing good.

At least that much right?




The long and the short here is clearly that you feel that children dying is wrong. So let's do several things together:

*I'll leave "but they go to Heaven!" out of this

*You'll tell me why killing children is wrong--if suffering is wrong, and children stop suffering when they die--and there is nothing and no Heaven or Hell after death--you'll tell me why god (or with no god, natural forces like genetics or human forces like euthanasia) killing children is wrong

Thanks!

Yes children dying is wrong I don't understand how you could believe it to be right unless it was in some twisted sick way.

Alright, so now children don't go to heaven. How does your deity justify their useless suffering which you believe to be is so good? They suffer and it kills them they gained nothing from it. People around them seemed to gain little as well.

Yes, I have made it abundantly clear why killing children is wrong.

When nothing happens after you die thats it. There is nothing and these children who suffer don't suffer. People don't exist and there is no sadness, no war, no hate and no thought. You could imagine it to be actual peace but you must remember unlike heaven where there is a God there is nothing there.

Now I don't understand what your trying to say with your last sentence but yes since God doesn't exist it is still terrible to have children suffering. It seems you want to say: See! If God at least exists there will be a point to that suffering! Which I believe is sick. Yes humans can grow through suffering(and through other means as well!) but what does a child gain from the useless suffering of war? Please tell me what they gain from suffering disembowelment, pain, fright and death? What does your glorious deity give them for their suffering?

This video below is GRAPHIC. I warn you now that it shows children in horrible conditions due to war. It is disgusting and horrific but due to PleaseJesus not understanding what some people suffer through and gain nothing from I believe he will be curious in this.




It is wrong but if a God commands it it is even more wrong. Diseases don't have morals or codes and go for whomever they can infect. If God uses these diseases as a weapon like a supposed 'Christian' friend aiming a gun at you. It is murder and more despicable with the intent to kill and not in a humane process as well.

You didn't even challenge me on free will. You claim it exists and proved it wrong yourself. Is there any more things you would like to add to that subject because I haven't forgotten. I will read your other replies to see your position with it but you seemed to avoid it entirely this time around.

Again, I believe you do not know much of the suffering you toss around. You think it isn't as horrid as it totally is. You think God killing babies was justified in some cruel way. The children hurting above would have resembled the same children God supposedly had murdered. Now tell me please how he justifies it.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

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16-09-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 02:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I would tend to agree with much of this post. So, to be consistent, since the suffering of the young bothers you so much, as it does me, is there something inherently wrong with killing a young child with cancer. Not “god” but a person doing the euthanasia.

Sorry for not being more clear.

I don't have a problem with euthanasia as I don't think there is an afterlife and suffering is the basis of my secular morality. However death is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I would want everything in our power to be done for a cancer patient, but if they are a terminal case with no reasonable end in sight? Ending their suffering, at their request and with their informed consent, may just be the kindest thing we can do for them at that point.

Now if I had your god's powers on the other hand...


(16-09-2013 02:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I don’t allow for magical explanations, which is why I’m still waiting for your hypothetical example of how a world without suffering doesn’t lead to boredom with pleasure or dissatisfaction with the absence of pleasure.

In other words, can you give an example that isn’t your imaginary sky god?

Your god is a 'magical explanation'. You are assuming that in this hypothetical no-suffering universe, that the humans (or whatever else your god made) there would be the same as us. You cannot imagine your god making us other than we are, you can't imagine being other than you are; that is your critical lack of imagination.

I don't believe in a magical sky god, you do however. So in light of the powers you attribute to your god (all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, all good), then by definition your god could have made a better world than this one but chose not to. Even if you were not satisfied with anything I could imagine (because I honestly think you lack the mental capacity at this point), that would not be a defense of your god. By definition he could make such a suffering free universe. It's funny how you seem so keen to place limits on your limitless god whenever it's suits your purpose or lack of imagination.

Are you really saying that your god could not have made us so that we never got bored? Are you really saying that your god could not have made a universe with no suffering? Are you really saying that your god lacks the power and knowledge to create such creatures and universe?

You believe that your god made us. Then you must accept that your god gave me the capacity to imagine a universe better than the one he created. That's your problem, not mine.

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18-09-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 03:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So PJ now wants examples of other universes with an omnipotent being doing something.

I'm not sure lack of imagination is purely the answer. There seems to be inability to grasp simple concepts.

Here's am answer anyway... Candy Land. In Candy Land the kids eat all the candy they want and don't get unhealthy/fat... There's free will to pick any candy they so desire and I see no suffering or pain... And it doesn't seem to limit joy of pleasure from trying 1 candy to the next candy.

Do you not see that an omnipotent being could create that universe?

I do see it.

Pleasure to you, then, is like eating candy? To most people, it certainly includes personal achivement and actualization, not by eating but by overcoming hardships and excelling despite the hardships (work, learning, suffering, pain, persecution, naysayers, etc.)

You can answer the above question, the hard question, "Pleasure to you comes when there is no effort?" (and overcome the suffering of effort you need to make to answer it) or take my easy question instead:

How long would it take you to get bored of eating candy? It takes me a few minutes only, even if I don't "get fat".
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18-09-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 04:25 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 01:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I think so, since suffering has positive and meaningful results and seems to be often if not always caused for good reasons, too.

I know what you mean. Torture, rape, burning, starving, freezing, crippling disability and disease is usually an important part of a healthy, positive life experience.

Ignoring the facetious nature of your post, I'd say that disease is a large part and necessary part of building resistance(s), freezing is a part of enjoying hot cocoa, starving or hunger enjoying food, and etc.

But if you disagree, please tell us all where people derive the RIGHTS not to be raped, tortured or burned. Where did you get this "sense" of inalienable RIGHTS to life, security and... wait for it... happiness or "pleasure". Which documents were you reading?

And save the "it's self-evident" garbage for fools. I have never gotten by with saying "god is self-evident" here so you can't say it's "self-evident" that one shouldn't starve to death.
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18-09-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(16-09-2013 04:39 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 04:25 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  I know what you mean. Torture, rape, burning, starving, freezing, crippling disability and disease is usually an important part of a healthy, positive life experience.

Of course.

God is perfect.
God made them.
Therefore, they are perfect.

QED.

It would be logical, Captain, to amend your statement to:

"God made evil and free will and etc. and is partially responsible for the evil we do. However, I (and you) are also responsible for the evil we do."

Do YOU do evil things?
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18-09-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Still not amazed...can we move on to part 3?

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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18-09-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Yes children dying is wrong I don't understand how you could believe it to be right unless it was in some twisted sick way.

I see. You’re saying that evolutionary adaptations for survival are sick and twisted? In the wild, predators LOOK for eggs and little ones to eat. Do you think reptiles are “sick and twisted” when they look to eat eggs rather than fight adult birds with beaks and claws?

And if not, why does it upset you if a paedophile has sex with an infant? Isn’t that easier than trying to have sex with a unwilling adult?

You see, with no god, you have situational, subjective ethics only. And the natural way is either a fallen creation as the Bible teaches or as you put it, “sick and twisted”. Sick.

Quote: Alright, so now children don't go to heaven. How does your deity justify their useless suffering which you believe to be is so good? They suffer and it kills them they gained nothing from it. People around them seemed to gain little as well.

Yes, I have made it abundantly clear why killing children is wrong.

When nothing happens after you die thats it. There is nothing and these children who suffer don't suffer. People don't exist and there is no sadness, no war, no hate and no thought. You could imagine it to be actual peace but you must remember unlike heaven where there is a God there is nothing there.

If there’s no Heaven (no afterlife) then how much do children suffer when they’re dead? Zero. So please explain why god killing a suffering child is “wrong”.

Quote: Now I don't understand what your trying to say with your last sentence but yes since God doesn't exist it is still terrible to have children suffering. It seems you want to say: See! If God at least exists there will be a point to that suffering! Which I believe is sick. Yes humans can grow through suffering(and through other means as well!) but what does a child gain from the useless suffering of war? Please tell me what they gain from suffering disembowelment, pain, fright and death? What does your glorious deity give them for their suffering?

This video below is GRAPHIC. I warn you now that it shows children in horrible conditions due to war. It is disgusting and horrific but due to PleaseJesus not understanding what some people suffer through and gain nothing from I believe he will be curious in this.

Did I say I like when children suffer? Did I say I think I’m happy when children suffer? I’m saying I understand Jesus and His very good reasons for the suffering of children and adults. But when you say a child suffering is “meaningless”, that means you have no reasons for them to suffer, right?

And if you have no naturalist reasons for them to suffer, why embrace naturalism? Why not embrace god?

Quote: It is wrong but if a God commands it it is even more wrong. Diseases don't have morals or codes and go for whomever they can infect. If God uses these diseases as a weapon like a supposed 'Christian' friend aiming a gun at you. It is murder and more despicable with the intent to kill and not in a humane process as well.

And if bacteria knew that they infect people, they would 1) hate us because we kill them in the billions with medicines 2) say we don’t exist if they’re atheists because they cannot see us and we exist (like when we look at ourselves in mirrors) outside their universe.

Quote: You didn't even challenge me on free will. You claim it exists and proved it wrong yourself. Is there any more things you would like to add to that subject because I haven't forgotten. I will read your other replies to see your position with it but you seemed to avoid it entirely this time around.

Again, I believe you do not know much of the suffering you toss around. You think it isn't as horrid as it totally is. You think God killing babies was justified in some cruel way. The children hurting above would have resembled the same children God supposedly had murdered. Now tell me please how he justifies it.

Huh? I think suffering hurts, and I can give you something like 40 different biblical reasons why there is suffering. It seems you are pressing the point that there is NO reason why any child should ever suffer, which means you lack answers. Not “science doesn’t know yet” but you lack real answers.
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18-09-2013, 02:49 PM
 
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(18-09-2013 02:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Pleasure to you, then, is like eating candy? To most people, it certainly includes personal achivement and actualization, not by eating but by overcoming hardships and excelling despite the hardships (work, learning, suffering, pain, persecution, naysayers, etc.)

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18-09-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: I don't have a problem with euthanasia as I don't think there is an afterlife and suffering is the basis of my secular morality. However death is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I would want everything in our power to be done for a cancer patient, but if they are a terminal case with no reasonable end in sight? Ending their suffering, at their request and with their informed consent, may just be the kindest thing we can do for them at that point.

Now if I had your god's powers on the other hand...

Can you define temporary problem? Again, in the natural world, it’s okay for young ones to die. It sounds like you perceive a theological problem here (which is odd since you’re not a theist, just like you resent when a Christian tells you what an atheist thinks or should think).

Quote: Your god is a 'magical explanation'. You are assuming that in this hypothetical no-suffering universe, that the humans (or whatever else your god made) there would be the same as us. You cannot imagine your god making us other than we are, you can't imagine being other than you are; that is your critical lack of imagination.

That’s not what I said, what I said was I know what humans were like, challenged you that no suffering equals boredom and resentment besides, and that if you’re unwilling to offer a counter example I can only conclude that we agree and couldn’t be human if there were no suffering.

Quote:I don't believe in a magical sky god, you do however. So in light of the powers you attribute to your god (all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, all good), then by definition your god could have made a better world than this one but chose not to. Even if you were not satisfied with anything I could imagine (because I honestly think you lack the mental capacity at this point), that would not be a defense of your god. By definition he could make such a suffering free universe. It's funny how you seem so keen to place limits on your limitless god whenever it's suits your purpose or lack of imagination.

I don’t follow. I don’t need a “better” world:

If I live, there is joy, and god.

If I suffer, my suffering is eased even as it happens.

If I die, I go with Christ.

I don’t need a “better” world. You do. How is that my burden, other than to try to be Christian and ease your suffering through charitable giving and evangelism?

Quote:Are you really saying that your god could not have made us so that we never got bored? Are you really saying that your god could not have made a universe with no suffering? Are you really saying that your god lacks the power and knowledge to create such creatures and universe?

He did make a world that promotes learning, witnesses of the coming judgment, and teaches us. A primary tool for this is suffering, so suffering is not meaningless. And even when a child suffers horribly, it’s in part (IMO) a prod for atheists to talk about “god”. And that’s a GOOD thing.

Quote:You believe that your god made us. Then you must accept that your god gave me the capacity to imagine a universe better than the one he created. That's your problem, not mine.

That is indeed my problem. And I’ve thought about it, and thought about it some more, and some more, and longer.

And we need suffering.

I can also think of Earth having 11 moons, but we don’t NEED 11 moons.

I can think of having six arms, but I don’t NEED them to live a “full” life.

I can live without sight or hearing too, and don’t you DARE EVER say the blind or deaf cannot live a full, rich life. So why does pain mean we cannot?

Your “better world” is a straw man, the more so since Christians remind atheists constantly that it also logically could be WORSE. Level field.
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