Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-08-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(27-08-2013 05:41 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  "and f you twice pj"

OK that was Funny!

PJ does this help you with your preaching? Are we inadvertently arming you for the unsuspecting college co-eds at the local quad who are going to get hammered by the sidewalk apologist who practices all the time with angry atheists? You have to realize that dude, you are totally going to ruin their buzz, man. "We got high between class but then there is angry christ dude in the Quad, it totally bums me out man..."

See, this totally goes against my experience. At my college, the druggies got all sorts of laughs poking fun at the angry christ dudes.

.... oddly enough, they WERE all dudes.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote:PJ himself, he knows there is no rational answer to the Problem of Evil if one presupposes a god. If such a being exists as described (ie able to affect the world in any way regardless of the laws of nature) then either it is evil or incompetent for evil to exist.

Unless for one of 100 philosophical examples, evil is really good, too, but you don’t know it!

And where in the flying Finnegan do atheists come up with “evil” and “good” anyway? How do you date appropriate moral terminology in a world created by nothing with no personality and for no discernible reason. Play fair.

And does anyone else “get” the appalling nature of a Problem of Evil being akin to the Problem of a Child whining about a spanking and then telling mom and dad, “I took the cookie jar’s cookies, but it’s your fault for having cookies, in a jar, and giving birth to me in the first place…”?

Quote:This problem is only in the case of a theistic universe however, for in this universe pain and suffering exist because of natural selection and the nature of the universe.

Exactly right. It’s not a problem if Nazis rape children and savages eat children in a naturalist’s worldview. It’s really a knotty problem if god loves anyone at all. You got it, I think.

Quote:Only when you have the Ego to assume that everything was made just so 1 species on 1 planet in a backwater of 1 small portion of the Universe do you have to square this circle.

Why cannot there be other species in other places? If there is life, it will trust Christ (if it is intelligent life). Smile

Quote:In all his wailing and whining PJ has never come close to a response to this and I doubt he will now, if he even responds to this post.

Um, you have three responses above, which can be condensed to two:

How do you get a Problem of Evil since atheists cannot use that term, evil, and give it any moral underpinning or moral force as pure skeptics and naturalists?

Would you tolerate a being you created telling you where to get on and off the bus? Would you take this nonsense from your children? “Dad and mom, how can you make me suffer and do my homework? If you were good and loving parents, you’d find a way for me to get A’s and get into Yale or Harvard without working for it.”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Perhaps if you actually read what is written, and take some time to think about it rather then rapid fire out your responces to everyone you might see that you are asking questions that were already answered in the very same post you are asking about.

What is the problem, then, please? I was aware of atheists hating an “idea of god” and not “a real god” which further defines why they get their god facts wrong incessantly. How in any way does that excuse acting pissy and whiny when discussing interesting concepts in the marketplace of ideas (not you, the other posters)? When I was debating in college, the whole atheist “f you you’re wrong you jerk” never won any debate points.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 01:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Perhaps if you actually read what is written, and take some time to think about it rather then rapid fire out your responces to everyone you might see that you are asking questions that were already answered in the very same post you are asking about.

What is the problem, then, please? I was aware of atheists hating an “idea of god” and not “a real god” which further defines why they get their god facts wrong incessantly. How in any way does that excuse acting pissy and whiny when discussing interesting concepts in the marketplace of ideas (not you, the other posters)? When I was debating in college, the whole atheist “f you you’re wrong you jerk” never won any debate points.

You didn't answer me.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:13 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 01:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:PJ himself, he knows there is no rational answer to the Problem of Evil if one presupposes a god. If such a being exists as described (ie able to affect the world in any way regardless of the laws of nature) then either it is evil or incompetent for evil to exist.

Unless for one of 100 philosophical examples, evil is really good, too, but you don’t know it!

And where in the flying Finnegan do atheists come up with “evil” and “good” anyway? How do you date appropriate moral terminology in a world created by nothing with no personality and for no discernible reason. Play fair.

And does anyone else “get” the appalling nature of a Problem of Evil being akin to the Problem of a Child whining about a spanking and then telling mom and dad, “I took the cookie jar’s cookies, but it’s your fault for having cookies, in a jar, and giving birth to me in the first place…”?

Quote:This problem is only in the case of a theistic universe however, for in this universe pain and suffering exist because of natural selection and the nature of the universe.

Exactly right. It’s not a problem if Nazis rape children and savages eat children in a naturalist’s worldview. It’s really a knotty problem if god loves anyone at all. You got it, I think.

Quote:Only when you have the Ego to assume that everything was made just so 1 species on 1 planet in a backwater of 1 small portion of the Universe do you have to square this circle.

Why cannot there be other species in other places? If there is life, it will trust Christ (if it is intelligent life). Smile

Quote:In all his wailing and whining PJ has never come close to a response to this and I doubt he will now, if he even responds to this post.

Um, you have three responses above, which can be condensed to two:

How do you get a Problem of Evil since atheists cannot use that term, evil, and give it any moral underpinning or moral force as pure skeptics and naturalists?

Would you tolerate a being you created telling you where to get on and off the bus? Would you take this nonsense from your children? “Dad and mom, how can you make me suffer and do my homework? If you were good and loving parents, you’d find a way for me to get A’s and get into Yale or Harvard without working for it.”

And called it. Danced around it without ever giving anything close to a coherent answer to religions major achilles heel. Plus we got to goodwins law as well.

Why does a supposedly loving all powerful god allow evil? Because he is incapable of preventing it or because he is the source of evil? Incompetent or evil take your choice either way not worthy of worship.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
I see that things like degenerative disease, mental illness, birth defects, miscarriages etc. that cause extensive emotional and physical suffering are simply "homework."

Classy response as always.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Oh I do remember it. The problem is, you have proven to be very ignorant of basic Philosophy, and academic Biblical Studies, so your "testimony" has no "authority". NONE AT ALL. You lack credibility. You have NONE. You have also diminished your own "authority" to ZERO, by your dishonest, manipulative posts, (such as that "retarded child" lie thing). You are not an honest man, SPJTJ. I have no reason to trust you, abut anything. I certainly have no reason to respect your "way-out-in-left-field-out-of-the-main-line" (Fundamentalist/Literalist) religious opinions, which apparently result from your lack of education in science, literature, and especially the ancient Near East.
First, please, what retarded child lie are you speaking of?

Quote: So you admit, that whether something is true or not, is not important. Your standard is whether it's USEFUL. You will hang on, for dear life to crutches, as you NEED them, the crutches religion provides. How cowardly.

If "sin exacts a heavy toll, and "it's payment is costly", (yet another pathetic apologetic attempt to rid oneself of the cognitive dissonances), then it means your god is SUBJECT TO (the nature of) REALITY, not it's creator, and that is no god. Why did the god MAKE the system that way ? The require himself to be SUBJECT to it.
It makes no sense. It falls flat on it's face. The usual trip. It's meaningless. A loving god could just forgive. If it can't, it is not in charge of, and the creator of REALITY.

Huh? Of course I think Christianity is true faith, AND it works when doctors are unable to help.

As to your question, which is a reasonable one, and correct me if I paraphrase you poorly here, regarding “Why would god make a real universe whose laws he is subject to, with its flaws and suffering?” I would respond:

The entire message of the Bible has to do with loving subjection under Law and conscience for the sake of others. Jesus submitted to the Father, I submit to Jesus, etc. I could answer you with a question or resolution, too, if you’ll allow me to re-rephrase your question, “Why would anyone create any kind of environment than participate in said environment and align to its internal rules and structure?”

Isn’t the answer, “Because they play fair…”? No one likes a poker host who sets house rules and antes and bet limits and then has Aces in their sleeve. I respect god all the more for adhering to the rules for sin, judgment, elevation, etc.

Quote:Then either you don't, or can't understand the issues here. You're WAY out of your depth here, apparently.

I’ll take that in stride because it’s precisely what Christians accuse atheists of and we both know that… that you are in denial, that you replace cognitive dissonance (god prompting your conscience) with anger, and etc. It’s such an overplayed hand I’m surprised you still play it. BB, you are VERY intelligent indeed.

I’d LOVE to sit down with you and listen to you talk about history and culture most anytime. So why not use your big brain and demolish my arguments with facts and logic instead of saying canards like “The reason why you are willing to see any meaning in any suffering whatsoever is because you can’t handle suffering like a man without your god,” when it’s rather the fact that I have peace in suffering that gives me that perspective and distance.

I heard you the first twenty times you (and fifty times from others here) said I’m not right in the head. It’s getting old. Why not try something new instead?

Quote: Irrelevant.
Whether something is "comforting" is ultimately not the issue here. The TRUTH is what's important. It's it's not "comforting" to you, and yours, too bad.
Grow up, and face reality, square in the face.
Believing or not believing has no effect on the outcome of anything.

In my personal experience, trusting Jesus has effect on most everything whether to a subtle or to an extraordinary degree. His love is consistently evident and evidentiary in my life and the life of friends, family, even my enemies.

The truth is there is something beyond even physical mortality and death. I would think this would appeal to you as an intellectual, the opportunity to extend your intellect for centuries to come.

Quote: Trouble is, there is no such "being". It's a fantasy you are afflicted with. It's a fiction, you have bought into.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but by now in this post you come off like Pazuzu the demon in The Exorcist. The priests are hitting you with the holy water and you’re writhing saying “It’s all lies! God is dead!”

I go to public places and preach a resurrected Christ who will respond to anyone who calls anytime. I imagine you have no motivation for public preaching, since your message would be a nihilist “There’s no hope and no continuation of this suffering. Curse god and die!”

Quote: I never watch MTV, so I don't know what that is.
I have a very fulfilling life.
Unlike you, (here in a futile attempt, to convince others to buy into your crap, with no results), and "judging" others, (even though your Jebus TOLD YOU NOT TO, and feeling all so "church lady" superior, and self-righteous.) Thank goodness, my religious friends in no way resemble you.

I get it. You need the crutch. You can't imagine life without it. Whether the crutch is true or not is irrelevant. You desperately NEED it.
It's called Utilitarianism. It has all sorts of unintended consequences.
Intellectually dishonest, but makes for "very comfortable".
It is easier to take the easy way out.
I do get it.

You didn’t miss much on MTV, so that’s great, but the rest sounds to me like foam is pouring from your mouth. You can’t even call Jesus of Nazareth Jesus, and not Jebus. There may be some demonic possession there. I’ll pray for you, brother.

And I’m delighted that you have religious friends, but if they tell you that as an atheist and someone who verbally assaults fundamentalists that you’re “just fine with god” they do not have all the truth and you can tell them I told you so. There are a great many religious people going to Hell and not just atheists.

Stay thirsty for truth, my friends (TV cool guy reference).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Wait he's not serious... Pj you think if someone doesn't want to take a aid to a test guide to get better grades easier.. That makes them insane or a narcissist?

That's a deluded path if i've heard one.

Actual pursuit of knowledge to be able to recall it comes from learning it. Thumbing through a guide for a test is proven to not benefit a persons knowledge long term. Do you want an easy A or to learn why something could be?

You know the answers. I’ve consistently said ON THIS THREAD that true education only comes through hard work and making mistakes (the suffering you say is not appropriate in a god-ordained universe).

I didn’t write I got the ANSWERS from god, I wrote about the utter stupidity of not wanting to encounter some being who is that knowledgeable!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Analogies aren't PJ's strong suit. Go read his comments about rape, other religions, the holocaust, suffering children, etc. They're f-ing offensive.

Again, you seem uncomfortable with the free discourse (in this case, analogies attempting to ascribe meaning on a hypothetical basis to past events) of ideas.

Why? Are you five years old? And don’t you dare ascribe hate speech to me. I won’t tolerate it.

I’ve said on this forum, for one example, that rape is a horrific crime to me, but also that free will helps rape victims reconcile what is a fair playing ground for god’s creatures, and that—which is accurate—rape in certain parts of the animal kingdom is pure Darwinian procreation. That’s YOUR problem. I’m not a Darwinist!

And god forbid I should offend anyone, right? The truth is offensive. That’s BB’s very point this week, and it’s a great point! I would never say I shouldn’t offend an atheist, offense in the name of love is an apologetic defense.

Grow up a bit?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: EXACTLY!!!! He knows how to limit it, and DOES NOTHING!! Looking around, I see plenty of people going through suffering with 0 educational purpose whatsoever. My uncle is dying of Lou Gerhig's disease as we speak - fully knowing that one day he will lose control of his throat and die by choking on this own throat to suffocate, but not before losing all of his faculties slowly and predictably over three years while his brain remains fully functional and intact.

This is his reward for being a Pastor of a Baptist churches for 45 years!??? That doesn't make any sense, and isn't in line with what [imaginary] God says happens to the faithful in the Bible! Your bible paints a rosy picture of what happens when you follow and have faith and you sit here and makes excuses why it isn't so - but, you have to deal with the fact that it says one thing in the Bible, and our experience of reality is totally different. Which, inter alia, lead some of us to believe that the bible is the giant pile of shit it clearly is. Not to mention how retardedly childish and anthropomorphic it is.

PJ - I wouldn't be bragging about my bible knowledge if I were you - you don't even think that there is Genocide in the bible. I created a new post, just for you. You should check it out, I don't think you know the bible NEARLY as well as you think.

Look, I don’t want to treat your remarks with anything less than total respect. You have a serious and important point, and about someone you clearly love. However, you will notice in these conversations that I try to separate myself from emotionalism and consider the suffering even of children, even of my OWN children, from a rational base. It’s all too easy to work ourselves into a lather over the suffering of others. So I’ll ask you:

Is that what your uncle had to say about his disease and its pathology? Has he abandoned the church he pastored? What was his response when he first heard about the disease? Have you spoken to him about his suffering recently? Does he have any “meaning” for what he’s suffering?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: