Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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28-08-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Still not astonished.

You don’t find it astonishing that I added to and expanded my thesis, while your colleagues have decided to rehash every argument they used in the first thread?!

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28-08-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: That's it right there.

When people ask me why I don't believe, specifically why I don't believe the bible, that's my answer right there. ...done...

Great snip! Great context! Yup.

Nope! I was referring to the transcendent meaning and endless joy that touch the new world that comes.
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28-08-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Goddam, we got another one in desperate need of Logic 101. That's what I learned to call a non sequitur back when I was like 12. And what I just did there ... that's what we call an ad hominem though I don't expect you to get that. (oops, there's another one).

I offered you several different looks at how your argument was self-defeating. Your response?

You are being illogical.

I’ll repeat what I said in different words, and you can show all of us my non sequiturs within:

Atheists are inconsistent in claiming god has no free will if he can only do good. This is inconsistent with the obvious fact that man does evil. Either man has free will, or if you blame man’s actions on god, god does evil and god has free will. Pick one.
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28-08-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: If your god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then he knows about the pain, he is there witnessing the pain, and he could easily do something about it but he doesn't.

Not a nice guy, that god of yours.

Not to mention that he could have made it so that there was no pain period, since he created everything. WTF did he create all the suffering for?

Dom, perhaps you’re late to the party. In my first post, I give quite a number of meaningful reasons why some (if not all!) suffering is necessary and vital for human development, both from the naturalist’s perspective and that of a biblical Christian. Please cite one or more of them here and explain your viewpoint in contrast.

Thanks.
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28-08-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
I unblocked you to read your response. Regretted it immediately.

(28-08-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Again, you seem uncomfortable with the free discourse (in this case, analogies attempting to ascribe meaning on a hypothetical basis to past events) of ideas.

I don't suffer comments like yours under the guise of "free discourse." Never. Never, ever, ever, will I allow someone to spew the morally twisted logic of religion in my presence. Free discourse does not absolve you of responsibility for your comments.

(28-08-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Why? Are you five years old? And don’t you dare ascribe hate speech to me. I won’t tolerate it.

Quote my line that says 'hate speech'. I'm waiting... Never said that. Trying to attribute that comment to me is your attempt to make yourself a martyr. All it did was succeed in making you a jerk.

I call it like I see it. You're morally offensive. Go ahead and call me names. Call me whiny. Call me five years old. Does that work for you in your social circles? Is that a learned behavior that you were hoping would get you results here? It's not going to work. It's not going to buy you a free pass. I'm going to call you out every time you cross that line.

(28-08-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I’ve said on this forum, for one example, that rape is a horrific crime to me, but also that free will helps rape victims reconcile what is a fair playing ground for god’s creatures, and that—which is accurate—rape in certain parts of the animal kingdom is pure Darwinian procreation. That’s YOUR problem. I’m not a Darwinist!

No, it's your problem. You came to an atheist site. You brought your loving god problems with you. Every time you try and dump them on us, we're going to pick them up and hand them back to you. Still haven't figured that out, have you?

(28-08-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And god forbid I should offend anyone, right? The truth is offensive. That’s BB’s very point this week, and it’s a great point! I would never say I shouldn’t offend an atheist, offense in the name of love is an apologetic defense.

Weeping Your comments aren't truth. Please. You're getting eaten alive in every thread and your best defense is to simply change the subject or avoid direct answers.

(28-08-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Grow up a bit?

The irony.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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28-08-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Neither your God nor any other directly causes suffering. All substantiated instances of suffering, and anything else that people might ultimately attribute to these figures, have immediate causes in the natural world, in a form indistinguishable from overall natural causation and a manner wholly consistent with said deities having taken not the least part in them, and for that matter consistent with them not existing at all. This may just possibly be because they don't actually exist.

Now, wait just a minute. If we take “Neither your God nor any other directly causes suffering” as TRUE, then there is NO WAY you can EVER have a problem of suffering with a god or deity, real or imagined. Be consistent.

Quote:And who, in your world view, was it that crafted the human character such that it would spend inheritances quickly, to needing hardship to stimulate achievement, et cetera? There is good reason to believe that these tendencies -- not whether they are overcome by individuals, but the fact that they exist to be overcome at all -- are genetically determined, rather than the consequence of individual human choices. If so, why does the necessity of hardship to promote innovation justify that hardship, if the necessity is not really necessity after all?

There are two possibilities. Human character is evolved toward survivability characteristics or god has a consistent economy where “sin” and “the fall” equals suffering as a result. And? I’m not sure I see your point. You can say I think god made us this way. That’s fine.

Quote:And it makes sense to call a believer who asks those questions in a genuine sense whiny, if it's in the tone of "I want so why ain't I getting?" When an atheist asks the question in the hypothetical sense and in the tone of "hey, this spiel you're trying to sell me doesn't add up, look at this here, isn't this inconsistent?" then that's not whining, that's critical thinking.

Well, what you wrote is critical thinking! “F you, you’re a moron, you have no logic, etc.” is whining. Do you disagree? I ask you, read the pages of posts on this thread so far and tell me everyone here who isn’t a Christian is consistent in applying critical thinking without emotionalism.

Quote:In any case, I don't see how finding an advantage in suffering, such as stimulation towards innovation, doesn't count as seeking a silver lining.

“Meaning” is not a crutch or silver lining. It is one way in which all humans add purpose to their life. I know atheists regard with a skeptical eye (and they should!) the countless studies on meaning and purpose done by scientists, but meaning is important.

Note carefully I will hold you and me and all others to a consistent viewpoint here. If anyone’s resolution is “a loving god wouldn’t cause evil and suffering” those words have ascribed meaning and moral force to natural actions and results. When a lion bites a gazelle to feed upon it, the gazelle feels sharp pain. This is desirable from an evolutionary standpoint as a stimulus to fight or flight, etc.

Is it “evil” when a lion bites a gazelle? Then how can a naturalist ascribe meaning to human suffering and then demand that the Christian should avoid any different interpretation of meaning on subjective issues? Is that fair, do you think?
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28-08-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: "and f you twice pj"

OK that was Funny!

PJ does this help you with your preaching? Are we inadvertently arming you for the unsuspecting college co-eds at the local quad who are going to get hammered by the sidewalk apologist who practices all the time with angry atheists? You have to realize that dude, you are totally going to ruin their buzz, man. "We got high between class but then there is angry christ dude in the Quad, it totally bums me out man..."

Yes, I thought it was funny when I wrote it, also. Thanks.
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28-08-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 01:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: If your god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then he knows about the pain, he is there witnessing the pain, and he could easily do something about it but he doesn't.

Not a nice guy, that god of yours.

Not to mention that he could have made it so that there was no pain period, since he created everything. WTF did he create all the suffering for?

Dom, perhaps you’re late to the party. In my first post, I give quite a number of meaningful reasons why some (if not all!) suffering is necessary and vital for human development, both from the naturalist’s perspective and that of a biblical Christian. Please cite one or more of them here and explain your viewpoint in contrast.

Thanks.

I read your examples, and most of the suffering serves no purpose at all. If pain is there to warn you, it can turn off after it got your attention. None of what you wrote justifies the fact that your god watches people in pain as he is omnipresent, and refuses to help even though he is omnipotent.

Having a terminal illness means it's short? I don't think you have seen enough actual human suffering or you wouldn't utter such nonsense.

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28-08-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
PleasyJebus,

Such an incredibly lame attempt to explain away the problem of suffering, and what you people call "evil".

Explain to me how an innocent 7 year old dying of AML, (Acute Myelogenous Leukemia), walking down the hall, pushing his IV pole, chemo running, holding on to his teddy bear, is in any way part of the (necessary) "plan" of a loving deity.

Please also stop with your crap about "free will". No omniscient deity is *free* to do what she knew "before", she was NOT going to do. She is constrained. That means she is no god.

You are so wound up in your pathetic metaphors, and lame apologetic attempts to explain away your Christian garbage, you can't see straight. But again, thanks again. It is refreshing to see, that there really is nothing other than "that man behind the curtain". And Christian fundies have nothing but nonsense to offer humanity with their ancient bankrupt metaphors, and meaningless drivel.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein (That's a JOKE, ya idiot)
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28-08-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: I'll back off on this point actually, simply to avoid the tangent of objective versus subjective good and evil, which deserves a thread or five of its own. I'll rephrase to say that death might come to be viewed as a lesser of two evils, and I'll clarify that I'm using evil in the sense of "something perceived as a negative, harm, or ill outcome", with the subjective perceiver obviously being the person (or people) viewing death as the lesser of two evils. This is not to say one way or the other that it would actually be a lesser evil in any sort of objective sense, or even that the broad sense of the word evil that I'm using here is the only possible way to define evil.



If we cannot come to an agreement on some way to define evil, even just for this resolution, than how can we debate at all?



Quote: Ah, I see. So essentially you can assert that free will always exists, because either some human somewhere had a choice, or else it was God's choice. (This, of course, assumes there is a God.)



It’s okay. You don’t have to give god disclaimers every paragraph. The other atheists will know we’re talking hypotheticals. You can still be in the “club”.

Quote:In any event, I'm not maintaining that a hypothetical God would HAVE to alleviate suffering, or have no choice or free will in the matter. I'm saying that if a God did have a choice between inflicting suffering, or accomplishing the same purposes without that suffering (which would definitely be an alternative for an omnipotent being), and then of his own free will did choose to inflict suffering with all things being equal, that such a God would not be described as loving. Such a being would be at best indifferent. Free willed, but indifferent. (Or possibly pointlessly cruel. Pointlessly cruel's an option.)



Is that all anyone has in the atheist box today? And don’t you know, I considered these alternatives a dozen years ago? “God could have made a place where there is no suffering but he may just be a cruel being instead”.



Let’s reword as “God could have made a place where certain actions, unlike other actions, have no consequence.” For example, if I do something right for which I should feel joy, I feel joy, but if I kill a small child in a cradle, I don’t suffer from guilt.



THIS now abrogates Newton’s law about action and reaction! This makes life a crap shoot, doesn’t it? That’s an insane proposition. Please rephrase!

Quote: REALLY. And what would be your basis for this assertion?

I don’t want to go down this tangent. I’m sorry I brought it up. Please excuse me. I was merely pointing out that one has a choice of suffering and starving or tithing to god who repays and is kind. I should have written “I’ve heard countless testimonies of people going through hardships who tithed and then, poof, they had all they needed to eat and more. Also, I’m unaware in all of Christian literature or secular documents of any born again Christian ever dying of starvation.”

Quote: I'd place it more in the rant category. But agreed that it isn't gentlemanly.

Yup. Nothing we can do it about though, unless we start the “Thinking, Courteous Atheist” forum! What a shame.
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