Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
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28-08-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: It won't help. You will be the same ignoramus. You will convert no one there either.
You have nothing to offer, except old, outdated, hackneyed platitudes.

Sho fly.


Thanks to you, I have new platitudes now that are outdated and reactionary! Thank you.
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28-08-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Here are the things I listed:
1. Mental illness;
2. Birth defects;
3. Miscarriages;

These things are beyond our control.

Here are the things you listed:
1. Emphysema brought on by smoking;
2. Death via drunk driving;

These things are not beyond our control.

Do you see a difference?

Yes. Sometimes your 1-2-3 are out of our control. Yes.

And sometimes, as I pointed out elsewhere this week, a couple has genetic counseling and high risk factors and has kids anyway.

I had to live this sort of thing, by the way. My wife and I discussed the odds (1 of 3 or more children is miscarried and she was adopted and we lack genetic information about her birth family) and then we had kids anyway. And we had two live children and one miscarriage.

Each, even the miscarriage who is in Heaven now, is a gift of God. Isn’t that something? It’s wonderful.

And I don’t blame god for birth defects for two reasons that come to mind 1) I’m aware of the Fall and that these failings are part of death and decay and everything’s natural tendency toward entropy 2) children with Down’s Syndrome, for one example, are about the sweetest kids you’ll ever know.

It’s a narrow mind that looks at all defects as ill will or a curse from god. And you-know-who had a program to euthanize all the infirm and those with defects. And I ain’t talking about Voldemort!

That’s right, when we say birth defects are “bad” or “inflicted suffering on the race” we sound like you-know-who with the dogs and the bunker and the 1,000-year Reich! Be careful!
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28-08-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 02:13 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Do you think it’s a high horse to say “I don’t suffer you” as well as ironic since this is a thread discussing suffering itself?

Very ironic. But not a high horse. It is not a high horse to stand up to someone who says "the holocaust could have been worse, thus god is merciful." It is a social responsibility.

(28-08-2013 02:13 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Isn’t it really, “I enjoy spewing at you because I have no self-control and cannot conduct a reasonable discussion?” May I suggest instead of cursing and name calling, you take a little break from the PC and come back after you’ve cooled down a bit?

Show me a list of the names I have called you, as well as the cursing I've done towards you. Or are you bearing false witness?

(28-08-2013 02:13 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  It’s hate speech (and I use that term liberally, I’m not asking the mods to censor you or anything) to say my comments on rape are offensive. It disgusts me morally to hear you say that about a fellow intellectual.

No it's not. Hate speech is speech used to intimidate or incite violence against a group. False witness again.

You're making a very powerful accusation to try and silence me. I have not demanded or suggested violence against you or Christians, and I have not threatened you in any way. You are now treading on thin ice. Accuse me of hate speech again and I'll request the mods review both our posts. I have nothing to hide. I am allowed to express my opinion about your posts. They were offensive and I have the right to state my opinion publicly. I have not put words in your mouth; your comments are archived on this forum for all to see and judge for themselves.

(28-08-2013 02:13 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I haven’t played a card like yours above in a long time on this forum (I think, I hope!). Isn’t that what a troll is—someone who calls taunts but offers no substance? I’m thinking about posts, even as spurious as yours and offering logical puzzles to ponder, questions, succor, hope and ideas. Why are you afraid of participating in the marketplace of ideas as a gentleman?

So when you called me five years old, whiny, and accused me of 'hate speech,' you feel that you were offering substance?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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28-08-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Really there is Justice? I would say such is an unreachable ideal. Millions of children suffering for no reason is justice when, if what you claim is true, there is a being that could end it? No, my sad little apologist there can be no justice in a world with suffering when it is well within the scope to relieve it. So again I pose this question, knowing full well you will never even attempt to answer it honestly. Is your God evil or incompetent?

So to you there is NO justice in a world with ANY suffering in it? Does that seem like a balanced view to you? It sounds like your (hypothetical) deity really has no love in it at all!

I demand justice for paedophiles. I demand justice and possible rehabilitation for criminals.

To answer your question, by the way, my god could be incompetent but not evil, since “evil” is a moral term a naturalist cannot hold to with authority. Maybe rephrase your resolution?
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28-08-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
Quote: Very ironic. But not a high horse. It is not a high horse to stand up to someone who says "the holocaust could have been worse, thus god is merciful." It is a social responsibility.

Good, let’s both take the high ground, then, and debate the issues at hand.

But since you’re focusing on my ideas about god and saying “The Holocaust could have been better” why is it a perceived threat to you for me to say “The Holocaust might have been worse”? Is that a fair playing ground in our debate, do you think?

Quote: Show me a list of the names I have called you, as well as the cursing I've done towards you. Or are you bearing false witness?

Sorry, don’t like to live out the past. I didn’t go back and reread this whole thread. You didn’t write “f you” to me? Sorry.

Quote: No it's not. Hate speech is speech used to intimidate or incite violence against a group. False witness again.

You're making a very powerful accusation to try and silence me. I have not demanded or suggested violence against you or Christians, and I have not threatened you in any way. You are now treading on thin ice. Accuse me of hate speech again and I'll request the mods review both our posts. I have nothing to hide. I am allowed to express my opinion about your posts. They were offensive and I have the right to state my opinion publicly. I have not put words in your mouth; your comments are archived on this forum for all to see and judge for themselves.

I just wrote I’m NOT asking the mods to censor you and was using the term liberally. So I’ll back off my comments and apologize. But I will insist you not say my comments about rape in the context of blaming the rapist for exerting free will are offensive. That’s just being rude.

Quote: So when you called me five years old, whiny, and accused me of 'hate speech,' you feel that you were offering substance?

Um, no. I just felt the shoe fit. But don’t YOU believe in a level playing field? I have umpteen freethinkers down my throat and waiting for a slip up or no slip up to pounce. Is your chest not that broad? I’ve been called worse just today, here.
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28-08-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
PJ, why are you even here? Do you get extra points if you come here and spew forth your religiobabble? You have to be smart enough to know you are going to win any converts, so that is the prize? What is the reward? What's the fucking point, if there is one?

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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28-08-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And sometimes, as I pointed out elsewhere this week, a couple has genetic counseling and high risk factors and has kids anyway.

Genetic counseling wasn't an option for most of human history. Trying to inject free will is a big stretch here.

(28-08-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I had to live this sort of thing, by the way. My wife and I discussed the odds (1 of 3 or more children is miscarried and she was adopted and we lack genetic information about her birth family) and then we had kids anyway. And we had two live children and one miscarriage.

Truly sorry for your loss.

(28-08-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  It’s a narrow mind that looks at all defects as ill will or a curse from god. And you-know-who had a program to euthanize all the infirm and those with defects. And I ain’t talking about Voldemort!

You mean that German guy from 70 years ago? Yeah, I'm not down with his thinking.

(28-08-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  That’s right, when we say birth defects are “bad” or “inflicted suffering on the race” we sound like you-know-who with the dogs and the bunker and the 1,000-year Reich! Be careful!

Fortunately, we have the ability to make some of their lives better. See, that's an option too. Extermination is obscene; why do you keep bringing it up?

Medicine, science, and human compassion. Real things I believe in. No god required.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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28-08-2013, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2013 02:57 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 02:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ...NONE OF YOU BLAME ANYTHING ON ANYONE BUT GOD...

Again, we honestly do not believe in "God"...fucking seriously...we don't. You NEED to understand that.

We "blame" (for lack of a more correct expression) everyting on anything other than "God" because we honestly don't believe "God" exist.

Seriously. Stop saying that shit. It's stupid. It's stupid that you keep talking that way. We don't believe in "God" so we don't blame "God" for anything, because if we were to blame "God" for anything we would be blaming nothing. Contrastly when you give credit to "God" for anything, or for everything, then you are giving credit to nothing...at all... There is nothing there.

We blame "God" for nothing because "God" is not a thing that actually exist, and you give credit to nothing because "God" is not a thing that actually exist.

The difference is that we understand that there is no "God" to give credit or blame to. You do not. We give credit or "blame" (again for lack of a more correct expression) to the actual causes of them as best we can describe and recognize them. You give credit and "blame" to nothing. You are wasting your life on a fantasy, a fiction.

Again, it's not "God" that we give a shit about. Because who losses sleep about the nonexistant unicorn? It's people's fucked up belief in a non-existant "God" that we care about, and in particular how it is expressed in the real world.

People who believe in this non-existant "God" act out "his" made up, not real, "will" on the rest of the population and force them to live, believe, and act in accordance with a made up nothingness. Do "this", and do "that" because the great, "not-actually-real-thing" in the sky, where "it" doesn't actually reside, because it doesn't actually exist anyway, has not actually told you to do it, because "it" can't because "it's" not a thing that exist in universe, but you must obey our made up concept of "it" anyway because WE ACTUAL REAL PEOPLE WILL PRETEND LIKE "HE" IS REAL AND WILL FUCK WITH YOU IF YOU DON'T PRETEND ALONG WITH US, there by acting out "his" nonexistent athority on earth which is really just us making up a non-real entity and fucking with you if you don't go along with us.

To be clearer. It is you people who pretend "God" exist and force this bullshit on the rest of us that piss us off. It's not "God" that pisses us off (he can't because he doesn't exist). It is you (using the universal "you" there) and other religious people who piss us off because the "thoughts and feelings" of "God" do not reside in "God" (because "he" does not exist), they reside in you.

...
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28-08-2013, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2013 06:19 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I’d be happy to explain it to you. And I’ll even do you a favor and lay aside free will for the moment to please you, pleasyBB.

The child’s disease pathology and duration in no way sums their life, any more than a gay man is identified solely by his sexuality or a Christian solely by his religion!

The child had joy at times and sorrow at other times, even while sick—that’s what children are like, the child is leaving this crappy place for a better place, the child was a little angel whose parents, even if they were apatheists to the point of neurasthenia, will say someday, “They weren’t with us long, but we’re glad we had them here for a while.”

Not to mention that if you’re a REAL atheist, pleasyBB, you’ll admit when the disease has run a full course and they’re dead, they cannot remember suffering anymore and it was all meaningless, not “bad”! Be consistent.

OR if you still hold onto your delusions here, remember this, someday you’re going to have kids. Will you avoid doing so because they MIGHT suffer from a disease, MAYBE?

Oops, I almost went to your free will again there. Sorry!

As I said, pathetic and lame, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. Fail.
When it's convenient to say your deity intervenes in the natural world, you claim it. When it isn't, you claim things are just part of the "natural world".
You think we don't see that inconsistency, and that when it's convenient, you pretend your deity isn't really in charge. You are inconsistent, and totally intellectually dishonest. You have nothing to offer. Nothing. FAR more intelligent men of faith have tried and failed at the question of suffering, including the writers of Job. No answer really. You haven't even gotten to first base. Give it up. You are incompetent, as a "preacher-man". In WAY over his head. Try to tell your CRAP, to the 7 year old, HIMSELF, or his parents. You have no clue what the life of the 7 year old consisted of. Many babies die with NO life. They certainly experience no joy. Take away the fallacy of "you'll soon be with Jebus". (you do know your cult did not believe in immortality until very very late in the game), and what have you got ? NOTHING. You have not explained WHY HE GOT AML IN THE FIRST PLACE. You can't carry an argument to save your soul. Always jumping to something that has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand, (my kids). You can't even decide which side to argue from.
So that's it ? That's all ya got ? You have nothing to offer to the question of either suffering or evil, except your tired old platitudes you memorized 50 years ago. You got nuthin.

Sho fly. Maybe you'll have more luck preaching somewhere else.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-08-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer? [The Astonishing Sequel]
(28-08-2013 02:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Really there is Justice? I would say such is an unreachable ideal. Millions of children suffering for no reason is justice when, if what you claim is true, there is a being that could end it? No, my sad little apologist there can be no justice in a world with suffering when it is well within the scope to relieve it. So again I pose this question, knowing full well you will never even attempt to answer it honestly. Is your God evil or incompetent?

So to you there is NO justice in a world with ANY suffering in it? Does that seem like a balanced view to you? It sounds like your (hypothetical) deity really has no love in it at all!

I demand justice for paedophiles. I demand justice and possible rehabilitation for criminals.

To answer your question, by the way, my god could be incompetent but not evil, since “evil” is a moral term a naturalist cannot hold to with authority. Maybe rephrase your resolution?

When did I claim to be a naturalist? I am a secular humanist sometimes a socialist and I do define evil as allowing suffering of those you have the ability to relieve and if your god exists as you say it is evil. As to no justice in this world, it is few and far between the majority of people live or have lived in barbaric conditions with a life expectancy of about 35 most of whom died painfully because of their teeth.

Now in my world, ya know reality without a fairy story, suffering exists because of multiple reasons mainly unequal distribution of wealth and power. In the world with the fairytale God who has more than all the power in the universe who can simply think things into being it makes no sense for the world to be as broken as it is. If you blame the fall of man it still goes back to faulty creation as evil existed in the system aka the serpent but we all know you will never look at this with logic and will simply run back to your strawman defense and your illogical apologetics.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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