Why Must Children Suffer?
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21-08-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(20-08-2013 12:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:PJ, a few questions:
1. What are the conditions for entry into heaven?
2. What are the conditions one experiences having failed to gain entry into heaven?
1. Trust Christ, who suffered greatly, emphatically, unto the very death of part of the triune God, to pay for sin.
2. Not a medieval place of pitchforks and demons, but a place of abject darkness, loneliness and discomfort. Have you lingered in a sauna too long and longed for water and cool air? This is clearly part of the condition of the rich man in Hell in Luke 16.

I think you're forgetting Matthew 25:
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say:
1. Believe, and
2. Eternal unbearable punishment

Wouldn't it also be accurate to say that those who do not believe because they are earnest seekers of truth who have come to a conclusion as best they can are the target of your god's torturous intentions?

What do you think of this? Do you have an opinion on it? Is it compatible with a "good" god? How do you reconcile it with your notion of God?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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22-08-2013, 09:39 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Really?

Would you dare go to a rape victim and inform her that her attacker will be welcomed into heaven because he accepted Christ while in his holding cell? That her rape couldn't be prevented by god because he wants the rapist to have free will?

Seriously, yes. I've told people I've witnessed to who were upset about being raped or being molested as a child, and who asked me why God didn't intercede--exactly that--gently--and they said, "I can see that" and understoood what the level playing ground is. Then becalmed, I'm able to go further and to pray for them and in public, and the real issue is for every wishful hypothetical a freethinker proposes, Christians are out there doing the work of helping real people with real problems with real Bible solutions. Thank you for raising that issue.

Quote:Would you dare stand over a cancer-stricken Buddhist and tell them they'll burn in eternal hell if they don't accept Christ into their heart before they die?

Let's go further than that. I'd tell Ghandi that--except it's "trust Christ for forgiveness of sin" and not "accept Jesus". Ghandi was a "good person" but an idolater. See the decalogue for more. YOU don't need to "accept Jesus as Lord" because He is your Lord. You need to trust Him for forgiveness if you haven't already done so. Thank you for raising that issue.

Quote:Would you dare tell a church full of Muslims that they and their children are damned for not accepting Christ?

No one is damned for not accepting Christ. Adults are damned for sin unless they have forgiveness of sin. Their children go straight to Heaven, something that consoles me when Muslims kill children in their endless wars. Of a dozen armed conflicts today, something like ten or eleven have Muslims on one or both sides of the conflict. Thank you for raising that issue also. It underscores why I'm a participant at this forum and how little of basic (important!) Bible doctrine most of you know.
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22-08-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:And here you are, labeling me 'whiny' and 'narcissist' because I dare to question why a god would allow children to suffer. Hmm...

But does the shoe fit? Look at it this way:

Christians have deep and meaningful reasons they can ascribe to suffering. Suffering is not meaningless so rarely does a Christian complain to an Atheist to say, "Man, I hate God so much because children suffer."

Naturalists have a reasonable explanation for suffering. See my first post in this thread for full details. They have no reason to whine about it, yet they do, almost incessantly. My reason for this thread in part was to get you to see your double standard.
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22-08-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:But I can accept Jesus and still sin. Does half of me go to heaven and half to hell? Do I go to both? Is it like Schroedinger's Soul, both at once? Quantum afterlife?

Depends, Chas. Which half of you is sinning? By the way, your avatar looks like you've turned into Schroedinger's cat!
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22-08-2013, 09:47 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(22-08-2013 09:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:And here you are, labeling me 'whiny' and 'narcissist' because I dare to question why a god would allow children to suffer. Hmm...

But does the shoe fit? Look at it this way:

Christians have deep and meaningful reasons they can ascribe to suffering. Suffering is not meaningless so rarely does a Christian complain to an Atheist to say, "Man, I hate God so much because children suffer."

Naturalists have a reasonable explanation for suffering. See my first post in this thread for full details. They have no reason to whine about it, yet they do, almost incessantly. My reason for this thread in part was to get you to see your double standard.

Please read more carefully. I'm not "whining" and accept suffering as a "naturalist." I do not accept suffering in the context of your god, for in your context suffering was an option chosen by god. Learn the difference or be doomed to keep repeating your posts.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-08-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:This, finally, in defiance of the nonsense above, contains a worthwhile kernel.

It still isn't a double standard, though. If suffering is an evolutionary necessity - I agree that the statement is substantially true, but it is contingent on the definitions of suffering, evolution, and necessity - then suffering is explicable. The human desire to reduce suffering in others is just as natural.

In a theistic universe suffering is not necessary. It is included in reality by the whim of an all-powerful creator.

And now we're down to it, thank the Lord. (Because I will continue to explain to all and sundry that Hitler and Stalin claimed social Darwinism and biological Darwinism so at least, they were liberal Christians. Smile)

In this theistic universe suffering IS necessary and is a consequence of sin. At least admit the Bible is consistent on this point. It's not like there isn't an apologetic in the Bible. Rather, it states that all consequences for sin will be paid in either this world or the afterlife, AND it states that any suffering of the righteous will be redeemed. I believe in a best of all possible and sinful worlds, which means the child will say in Heaven "yes it hurt but now I'm not only better, I'm blessed." Get it?
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22-08-2013, 09:51 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(22-08-2013 09:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Really?

Would you dare go to a rape victim and inform her that her attacker will be welcomed into heaven because he accepted Christ while in his holding cell? That her rape couldn't be prevented by god because he wants the rapist to have free will?

Seriously, yes. I've told people I've witnessed to who were upset about being raped or being molested as a child, and who asked me why God didn't intercede--exactly that--gently--and they said, "I can see that" and understoood what the level playing ground is. Then becalmed, I'm able to go further and to pray for them and in public, and the real issue is for every wishful hypothetical a freethinker proposes, Christians are out there doing the work of helping real people with real problems with real Bible solutions. Thank you for raising that issue.

You what, PJ? Fuck you.
Fuck you and your disgusting apologetics.
Fuck you and your concept of a 'loving god'.
Fuck you and your religion.

Go the fuck away and grow a moral backbone.

Fuck off.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2013, 09:58 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:(Translation: Because of stuff held in theistic belief, their suffering can be regarded as being of reduced import.)

I read your whole reply but if I may be brief regarding this most important point you made, to stay on the crux of things. This "stuff" "works". I've seen many people eased of suffering with prayer and the intercession.

Everyone talks of a consistent paradigm yet without making allowance for they way this paradigm is lived in reality. Is it okay if children suffer if God gives them strength to bear up? Has no one here read of a "little angel" who smiled in the cancer ward and said they were excited to be soon seeing Jesus?

The naturalist has medicines and doctors, the Christian has something extra, something special. Surely that counts for something (cringing, waiting for forum backlash).
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22-08-2013, 09:59 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:You what, PJ? Fuck you.
Fuck you and your disgusting apologetics.
Fuck you and your concept of a 'loving god'.
Fuck you and your religion.

Go the fuck away and grow a moral backbone.

Fuck off.

I'm not lying. I've actually shared all this with real people who've been really, seriously hurt and they get it. You can Google "free will and abuse" and you're likely to hear testimonies from other apologists in this vein. I'm very sincerely sorry you were offended by my post, which was honest, and I apologize. Surely you have experienced some very real hurts in life as well, as have I.
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22-08-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(22-08-2013 09:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Seriously, yes. I've told people I've witnessed to who were upset about being raped or being molested as a child, and who asked me why God didn't intercede--exactly that--gently--and they said, "I can see that" and understoood what the level playing ground is. Then becalmed, I'm able to go further and to pray for them and in public, and the real issue is for every wishful hypothetical a freethinker proposes, Christians are out there doing the work of helping real people with real problems with real Bible solutions. Thank you for raising that issue.

Let's go further than that. I'd tell Ghandi that--except it's "trust Christ for forgiveness of sin" and not "accept Jesus". Ghandi was a "good person" but an idolater. See the decalogue for more. YOU don't need to "accept Jesus as Lord" because He is your Lord. You need to trust Him for forgiveness if you haven't already done so. Thank you for raising that issue.

No one is damned for not accepting Christ. Adults are damned for sin unless they have forgiveness of sin. Their children go straight to Heaven, something that consoles me when Muslims kill children in their endless wars. Of a dozen armed conflicts today, something like ten or eleven have Muslims on one or both sides of the conflict. Thank you for raising that issue also. It underscores why I'm a participant at this forum and how little of basic (important!) Bible doctrine most of you know.

Enough with the passive-aggressive "Thank you" comments. It's childish and an amateur internet debate tactic. Put that ego of yours in check.

>No one is damned for not accepting Christ.
How do you receive forgiveness of sin by rejecting Christ? You are now bending your dogma to try and win a point. I'm hanging on to this quote of yours.

>Their children go straight to Heaven.
Uh huh.

>Of a dozen armed conflicts today, something like ten or eleven have Muslims on one or both sides of the conflict
Can you name any "Christian Nations" involved in these conflicts? I can. Irrelevant point, but a great demonstration of the negative effects of religion.

>"trust Christ for forgiveness of sin" and not "accept Jesus"
Semantics. Jesus is required. You have not in any way removed Jesus from the equation by rewording this.

And finally...

I call bullshit on your rape comment. I call it RIGHT NOW. For starters, you will not be given access to a rape victim unless your either family or are personally requested because that particular patient wants a Christian witness. Unbelievable that you'd try to pull that one over on me just to get an angle on the argument. Really offensive, actually. We're done here.

See ya.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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