Why Must Children Suffer?
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23-08-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(22-08-2013 06:20 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

I do not envy PJ. My deconversion was 15 years ago and I am grateful (to myself) that I do not have to do that shit again. Sux. Go from hero to zero in T-minus 10 minutes. Not being able to visit with my own family is the worst part.

The hero part is obviously something he enjoys. I haven't seen a single thread where he hasn't mentioned "witnessing" someone.

He said he'd witness to other religions and rape victims. That's pure arrogance. He uses an example of me going to a hospital bed and telling a child's parents that life is without meaning, but in his example he's out in public and people are coming up to him asking for help, then embracing him and "gently, softly" (gag me) discussing free will as a gentle mist of rain begins to fall upon them and white doves fly up from the tall reeds of the city park. Why wasn't he also in a hospital, uninvited, next to a dying victim? Because PJ is the "humble" hero. That offers some strong insight into how he views himself.

Yet he keeps coming here. He hasn't won any arguments or answered a single difficult question. Maybe... there's a bit of a skeptic inside him somewhere...?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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23-08-2013, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2013 10:34 AM by Skippy538.)
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
It's a mild messianic complex, and I suffered badly from one for 10 years after de-conversion. Nearly impossible to lose when you are still in the faith.

Even after faith I was always trying to save someone. It's hard to let go of, but also very freeing when it happens. One day you wake up and realize its all ego-driven behavior, and not "helping" nearly as much as you think. The battle for the existence of altruism is a philosophical one that you realize is impossible to win. You have to get "something" from it, its basic proven behavioral psychology. Once this cat is out of the bag, you can deal with the emotional reality of letting the complex go. It is a bitch, I still fight it from time to time, but much less so than 5 years ago.

He may have a skeptic in there fighting to get out. My early apologetics work was as much an attempt to find the answers to confirm my faith, so I did have some unanswered questions. Once the balance of arguments were always going the other way, the cognitive dissonance kicks in and you are really struggling every day. From there, its just a hop and a skip. One can hope. I like the idea of reaching the lurkers - the 22 "guests" always on the forum - but if the other poster comes over, the more the merrier!

Still waiting on Genocide and the activity of the Holy Spirit in protecting the "least of these." Drinking Beverage
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23-08-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Stalin targeted people when he thought they might offer resistance to him. You bet certain groups and regions were affected. Not for racial reasons. He was paranoid and bloodthirsty. He was not racially motivated. Plenty of real crimes to accuse him of, without making any up.

If you know Stalin’s mind because you’ve an intimate who discussed all this with him and not special knowledge, please tell us more. I’m sure you wouldn’t tell certain historians “they’re inventing things”.

Quote:I guess it's time for a history lesson: Stalin targeted independent landowners as part of the agricultural collectivization process; disruption was therefore concentrated where there were more independent landowners (including but not exclusive to central Ukraine - lots of Belarusians died right next door, heck, lots of Uzbeks died, but they didn't have a foreign lobby during the Cold War, so nobody gives a shit). The upper leadership were callous and the bureaucratic apparatus was incompetent, but even so there were attempts at famine relief. The exact same thing happened in China, except of course they are "all the same" and nobody can be bothered to make the spurious accusations of ethnic cleansing.

Sounds like a good theory.

Quote:I think that's just about enough on the subject ol' Uncle Joe. It's interesting enough for its own sake, and in my deranged optimism I can only hope you learn something, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything germane to the thread.

Not at all. In fact, I’d be happy to agree with you. Stalin killed Ukrainians to increase his iron grip on a populace, and thus slit his own throat by decimating a bread basket of the U.S.S.R. And Hitler bombed his birthplace as a cover up and not for biological reasons. And Stalin killed Jews not because of Darwin but because they were dangerous intelligentsia and threatened his power.

Now all we have left from Darwinism (or Social Darwinism if that helps) is:

*Homosexuals are meant to die

*Abortion isn’t moral or immoral, it’s merely survival of the fittest

*God made the world via evolution if he exists, so he isn’t omnipotent and cannot create instantly, nor he is able to give a clear Bible, since it contradicts evolution.

Hey, that last one solves the whole “Why is there suffering?” problem. God isn’t omnipotent. What a relief.

See, I guess I can learn.

Quote: Nazi racial doctrine was incompatible with sound biology. It doesn't matter what they thought, it was bad science. You must be trying really hard not to understand this. They could be inspired by whatever they want (and some of them were inspired by a religious conviction, or have you forgotten the belt buckles already?). Was some of that inspiration from a skewed view of evolutionary principles? You bet. Is that relevant to anything in any way? No.

Then start a separate thread on how it was skewed. 1) There are human races. 2) Hitler stated that the fittest would kill those without the courage to bear the arms and do the killing.

Quote:Have you perhaps forgotten my last post? That would seem unlikely, since you just responded to it. But I shall reiterate, since you did not address the matter. Either they were not 'naturalists', because their views were incompatible with the scientific consensus, or they were bad 'naturalists', because their views were incompatible with the scientific consensus. Either way it doesn't matter.

Everything matters. You ask me “Where did you learn X or did you just makeup X on your own?” because you think I’m wrong about X. I want to know and continue to learn where Hitler and Stalin (and Darwin!) “done got schooled” because they caused untold suffering. Like you, I want to see suffering reduced.

Clearly the “church” of Rome killed thousands if not millions. You betcha. Kind of sucks for me, doesn’t it. But anyone who claims that Hitler and Stalin did not sit at the feet of Darwin and Nietzsche are engaging in something on the level of Holocaust denial IMHO.
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23-08-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Except there literally were and are hundreds of millions of people with no knowledge of Jesus during their lifetimes. What is their fate? If they are reviewed individually, then on what grounds? For certainly it cannot be on adherence to a doctrine they had no knowledge of - if so such individual review would admit of but one conclusion.

Straight answer, please.

Great question. Jesus rises and some were millennia to hear about it overseas! I'm an inclusivist. If you hear and understand the true gospel you may respond to god and say, "I want some more". If you've never heard the gospel you may respond to god, who interacts with people. Sure, yes.

I don't think KC is an inclusivist but he is entitled to his opinion and I believe he is informed by scripture, too.
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23-08-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:One of our younger users (Ferdy) summed this whole thing up with her post below. There is clarity in her brevity if you care to think about it but evidently you aren't willing and/or able.

"I am not even going to skim through this thread. Let me answer the title of this thread instead.

"Why must children suffer?"

Because that's life."

Kid Charlemagne, “did you feel like Jesus” as Steely Dan sang?

It IS life and it IS death. Naturalists tend to deal with one much better than the other.
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23-08-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(23-08-2013 10:20 AM)Skippy538 Wrote:  It's a mild messianic complex, and I suffered badly from one for 10 years after de-conversion. Nearly impossible to lose when you are still in the faith.

Even after faith I was always trying to save someone. It's hard to let go of, but also very freeing when it happens. One day you wake up and realize its all ego-driven behavior, and not "helping" nearly as much as you think. The battle for the existence of altruism is a philosophical one that you realize is impossible to win. You have to get "something" from it, its basic proven behavioral psychology. Once this cat is out of the bag, you can deal with the emotional reality of letting the complex go. It is a bitch, I still fight it from time to time, but much less so than 5 years ago.

He may have a skeptic in there fighting to get out. My early apologetics work was as much an attempt to find the answers to confirm my faith, so I did have some unanswered questions. Once the balance of arguments were always going the other way, the cognitive dissonance kicks in and you are really struggling every day. From there, its just a hop and a skip. One can hope. I like the idea of reaching the lurkers - the 22 "guests" always on the forum - but if the other poster comes over, the more the merrier!

Still waiting on Genocide and the activity of the Holy Spirit in protecting the "least of these." Drinking Beverage

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you went through a tough time. Mine was really, really abrupt. After I let go, I was pretty upset at myself for believing that people endure eternal suffering for not being part of my religion. What a shitty way to view your fellow humans. Other than that, I felt an incredible sense of freedom and the chaos of the world and life began to finally make sense to me.

The devil's influence, I'm sure Big Grin

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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23-08-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:The hero part is obviously something he enjoys. I haven't seen a single thread where he hasn't mentioned "witnessing" someone.

I’m so gratified to hear that. I feel like I don’t witness enough or talk about evangelism enough here on this forum.

Quote:He said he'd witness to other religions and rape victims. That's pure arrogance.

I’m sorry you feel that way. A safeguard against jumping to conclusions would be to ask me for more information before deciding. 1) I’ve witnessed in very public places to thousands of people. 2) Some listen silently, some ask questions, some mock or do more than one of those things. 3) Rarely does someone state in public (one in thousands of people) that they’ve been raped or abused but it happens. 4) I can say “go to counseling” or “life is suffering as two people told me on an atheist forum thread so just deal” but I learned to talk about free will.

Quote:He uses an example of me going to a hospital bed and telling a child's parents that life is without meaning, but in his example he's out in public and people are coming up to him asking for help, then embracing him and "gently, softly" (gag me) discussing free will as a gentle mist of rain begins to fall upon them and white doves fly up from the tall reeds of the city park. Why wasn't he also in a hospital, uninvited, next to a dying victim? Because PJ is the "humble" hero. That offers some strong insight into how he views himself.

I apologize. I should have said you wouldn’t say that in a hospital because only a jerk would do that and you’re not a mean person. But it does underscore the futility of a worldview without ultimate hope. I’ve been to hospitals and funeral parlors and nursing homes to do ministry and to help people. Again, my “theology” is useless unless it helps real people with real problems, which it does.

And there IS rain and soft mist not because of my brilliance but because when someone is holding bitterness against an abuser and/or the god who loves them there is amazing relief and it’s so simple when you talk about free will! If you want to hear stories where I gently and lovingly shared with people and they spit on my clothing or told me to drop dead I have those too. But not when a real healing has happened.

Quote:Yet he keeps coming here. He hasn't won any arguments or answered a single difficult question. Maybe... there's a bit of a skeptic inside him somewhere...?

Of course there is a skeptic inside me. If there wasn’t I wouldn’t be a normal person and I’d be a very, very neurotic Christian. I think atheism is a normal tendency (god isn’t visible at most times to most people) taken too far.

But I’ll say this. I can do apologetics for any subject, but what keeps me in this relationship with god is the great love god shows me. It’s for love that Christ died and rose, and the love of Christ is to control (ought to control) Christians.

And it is the love of Christ that ends a child’s suffering in death and Heaven or in easing that suffering. MOST people don’t suffer always and forever BEFORE they can trust Christ and MISS Hell. I mean, ya’ll sound sometimes like god is vicious and not loving because people suffer sometimes. “You can make all of the people suffer all of the time but god didn’t.” – PT Barnum
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23-08-2013, 10:52 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:It's a mild messianic complex, and I suffered badly from one for 10 years after de-conversion. Nearly impossible to lose when you are still in the faith.

In my case, not so mild. I’ve been accused of having one BEFORE I was a Christian! Again, a natural tendency (we all need a messiah) taken too far (let’s save everyone on our own).

Quote:Even after faith I was always trying to save someone. It's hard to let go of, but also very freeing when it happens. One day you wake up and realize its all ego-driven behavior, and not "helping" nearly as much as you think. The battle for the existence of altruism is a philosophical one that you realize is impossible to win. You have to get "something" from it, its basic proven behavioral psychology. Once this cat is out of the bag, you can deal with the emotional reality of letting the complex go. It is a bitch, I still fight it from time to time, but much less so than 5 years ago.

But I have a dollar that says you’d still try to save someone physically if not spirituality. I believe you would risk physical harm to help another person in need. So keep it simple. If Jesus is real trying to save people is as natural as breathing.

Quote:He may have a skeptic in there fighting to get out. My early apologetics work was as much an attempt to find the answers to confirm my faith, so I did have some unanswered questions. Once the balance of arguments were always going the other way, the cognitive dissonance kicks in and you are really struggling every day. From there, its just a hop and a skip. One can hope. I like the idea of reaching the lurkers - the 22 "guests" always on the forum - but if the other poster comes over, the more the merrier!

Look, I try to walk in your shoes and I think it takes a brave person to look at death and say “I don’t know AND I live with not knowing.” I think that is brave. I get it when people say Christians are afraid of many things, too. Sure.

Quote:Still waiting on Genocide and the activity of the Holy Spirit in protecting the "least of these."

I must be missing your question somehow, sorry. There is no verse I can think of specifically that says Jesus will rescue all children in LIFE. There are plenty that say things like “Heaven is made of children and childlike people of faith”. And I’ve mentioned verses where Jesus says (forgive my paraphrase):

I’M RIGHTEOUSLY WRATHFUL TO PAEDOPHILES AND HAVE A SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL FOR THEM.

Amen.
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23-08-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you went through a tough time. Mine was really, really abrupt. After I let go, I was pretty upset at myself for believing that people endure eternal suffering for not being part of my religion. What a shitty way to view your fellow humans. Other than that, I felt an incredible sense of freedom and the chaos of the world and life began to finally make sense to me.
This wasn’t directed at me but I’d like to ask. What then, should be the punishment for a Hitler or Himmler? If we did catch them to stop their suicides, what should we do with them that is not only moral but fitting? A Lex Talionis, if you will.
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23-08-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If you know Stalin’s mind because you’ve an intimate who discussed all this with him and not special knowledge, please tell us more. I’m sure you wouldn’t tell certain historians “they’re inventing things”.

I would tell certain historians they're inventing things. When I think they are.

That's stunningly disingenuous, by the way. No one in position to discuss the matter was a close associate of Stalin - anyone who could claim to be is dead. We rely on interpretation of the available data. It has led me to certain conclusions. I know you're quite well aware of this, so again I'm left wondering why you would make such a ludicrous statement.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Not at all. In fact, I’d be happy to agree with you. Stalin killed Ukrainians to increase his iron grip on a populace, and thus slit his own throat by decimating a bread basket of the U.S.S.R. And Hitler bombed his birthplace as a cover up and not for biological reasons. And Stalin killed Jews not because of Darwin but because they were dangerous intelligentsia and threatened his power.

Okay, that's good to have settled.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now all we have left from Darwinism (or Social Darwinism if that helps) is:

Social Darwinism is not Darwinism. So there's that equivocation to start things off.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Homosexuals are meant to die

Everyone is meant to die. That's what being alive means. Anyone not reproducing is irrelevant anyway.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Abortion isn’t moral or immoral, it’s merely survival of the fittest

Since abortion has nothing to do with the fitness of the embryo, it is also irrelevant.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *God made the world via evolution if he exists, so he isn’t omnipotent and cannot create instantly, nor he is able to give a clear Bible, since it contradicts evolution.

Hey, that last one solves the whole “Why is there suffering?” problem. God isn’t omnipotent. What a relief.

See, I guess I can learn.

Only from an extremely literal-minded view of scripture is there any conflict... Evolution is an undeniable facet of reality. That God did things one way instead of another is not logically coherent proof of a lack of omnipotence; I've never heard a claim like that.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Then start a separate thread on how it was skewed. 1) There are human races. 2) Hitler stated that the fittest would kill those without the courage to bear the arms and do the killing.

You can start a separate thread if you like. You're the one who brought it up in this one.

Their definition of race was not biologically coherent.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Everything matters. You ask me “Where did you learn X or did you just makeup X on your own?” because you think I’m wrong about X. I want to know and continue to learn where Hitler and Stalin (and Darwin!) “done got schooled” because they caused untold suffering. Like you, I want to see suffering reduced.

No, the point is that what some very crazy people believed has nothing to do with the ideas they claimed to be inspired by. Hitler's apparent espousal of 'Darwinism' has nothing to do with real evolutionary biology. It's just a really dumb argument whose only motive is a sort of guilt by association, and an intelligent person can and should do better than fallacious equivocation.

(23-08-2013 10:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But anyone who claims that Hitler and Stalin did not sit at the feet of Darwin and Nietzsche are engaging in something on the level of Holocaust denial IMHO.

Uh, what did I just say? "Claiming to be inspired by" is not the same as "actually relating to the ideas of". Nazi ideology draws heavily on religious themes and ideas as well. So what?

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