Why Must Children Suffer?
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13-08-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 01:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Incest is not a “guilt” emotional pain. That would imply that we all want to have sex with our siblings, parents and children, but are only stopped by the guilt associated with it. I really hope that’s not how you personally feel, and I hope you see the obviousness of why what you wrote there was wrong. ...the response to the idea of incest is not “guilt” it is disgust...

Naturalist: There is no guilt, really, so please do not make posts that ascribe the motivation of guilt, or a lack of guilt, to any human interaction. Further, pain is imperfection, despite the fact that I agree pain is important to evolutionary behavior as a naturalist, so why didn't God make a perfect universe to begin?

Reread that. You are pretending it said something different than it said, because you are being disingenuous.

(13-08-2013 01:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  [Realist:] ...so why didn't God make a perfect universe to begin?

[Make up a bunch of bullshitist]: He did.

No, he didn't.
I guess I won that argument...that was easy enough.

...
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13-08-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Two children come running out of a burning house. Both have harsh 2nd degree burns and smoke inhalation damage to their lungs.
They are frightened and confused running as fast as they can.

One runs north into the woods and the other runs south toward a nearby farm house.
At the house, the child is met by two caring adults who phone for help and try to tend to the child's wounds as best as they can to help reduce the suffering and help reduce the pain.

The child in the woods is in a great deal of pain, crying and hurting. This child is lost and alone and is now growing cold from the weather.
This child is suffering because there are no caring beings who are aware of this child's suffering.
If any human was aware of it, they would take steps to reduce that suffering and help the child as much as possible.

Children don't have to suffer when there are beings who are aware of the suffering and who are able to reduce the suffering.
There are times that we as human beings cannot stop the pain. We try our best to make a child as comfortable and painless as possible when they are suffering but with some cases, there isn't much we can do.

When someone invents a god who is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then if that god exists, there should be NO suffering
because that being would a) be aware of the suffering b) have the ability to reduce the suffering and c) actually gives a damn if someone is suffering.

So in many peoples minds, anyone's suffering, let alone a child's suffering means that no such being, we call god, exists.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-08-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 01:36 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Two children come running out of a burning house. Both have harsh 2nd degree burns and smoke inhalation damage to their lungs.
They are frightened and confused running as fast as they can.

One runs north into the woods and the other runs south toward a nearby farm house.
At the house, the child is met by two caring adults who phone for help and try to tend to the child's wounds as best as they can to help reduce the suffering and help reduce the pain.

The child in the woods is in a great deal of pain, crying and hurting. This child is lost and alone and is now growing cold from the weather.
This child is suffering because there are no caring beings who are aware of this child's suffering.
If any human was aware of it, they would take steps to reduce that suffering and help the child as much as possible.

Children don't have to suffer when there are beings who are aware of the suffering and who are able to reduce the suffering.
There are times that we as human beings cannot stop the pain. We try our best to make a child as comfortable and painless as possible when they are suffering but with some cases, there isn't much we can do.

When someone invents a god who is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then if that god exists, there should be NO suffering
because that being would a) be aware of the suffering b) have the ability to reduce the suffering and c) actually gives a damn if someone is suffering.

So in many peoples minds, anyone's suffering, let alone a child's suffering means that no such being, we call god, exists.

But isn't it better for the child in the woods to have an adult hiding in a tree who he can't find, and who could completely heal the child, but doesn't because he wants that child to appreciate that fact that he will help him decades from now when it won't even matter anymore?

And besides, what does the child expect? Forty years, before the child was even born, his uncle was asked by the guy hiding in the tree to not use his coffee mug, but he did anyway. So now obviously that child should suffer 2nd degree burns and smoke inhalation damage to his lungs. Where would the justice be if he didn’t? I mean the boy’s uncle used the guys coffee mug, the boy needed to burn.

...
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13-08-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Actually if you read the bible nowhere does it say that children go to heaven by fiat.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Seems to me that those kids don't get a free pass unless your infallible savior was mistaken.

How are you arguing against that using John 14? The children come through Jesus. So do the adults. And?

Matthew 19: Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Matthew 18: See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
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13-08-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
I am not even going to skim through this thread. Let me answer the title of this thread instead.

"Why must children suffer?"

Because that's life. Drinking Beverage
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13-08-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Well shit, by that logic a teenager could flunk a test in high school and just say, but I'll get straight A's in heaven when I die so let's just make up whatever bullshit makes us happy. Fuck you mom, fuck you teacher…I’m a straight A student in heaven!

Death is a stark and inevitable reality of life. But hey let's all just pretend we don't actually die and everything will be perfect. Isn't that better then dying? Pretending everything is perfect? Of course it is so let's all just pretend we live forever because pretending is better than reality and there for makes it somehow real! Problem solved…

I also want to own a unicorn and have a baby pet dragon while I'm at it! It would be way better to have a unicorn and a baby pet dragon than to not have them so that might as well be real too! And now it is, just because I want to pretend it is, because that's shapes reality.

Naturalist: I hear what you're saying, PJ, about being in Heaven for thousands of years, but Paul was wrong, as that hope and expectation in no way diminishes the reality of this present suffering. As a matter of fact, I also complain about studying for tests, working on a relationship before proposing, lifting weights and doing aerobics to stay healthy, and eating right for years to stave off my inevitable death. God has screwed up here, clearly nothing is worth suffering for, or waiting for, or dying to gain. It is utterly and patently unfair to make a child be sick or feel pain for even five minutes just because the afterlife is better than this. Further, although I am an Atheist and do not believe in the supernatural, although I am an admitted Darwinist, I'm also going to throw aside all that we've discussed so far about the necessity of suffering to register these complaints. Would you pass them on to your God for me, please?

Christian: I disagree.
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13-08-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Christian: The criminal is a so-called Christian priest who harms a person... Luke 17: "He said to His disciples, 'It is inevitable that the pederast Christian priests come, but woe to him in whom they come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his rapist's neck and he were thrown into the sea.'"

Naturalist: Fixed!

Christian: Agreed!
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13-08-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 12:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Naturalist: So? Death is a part of life, those with genetic flaws and incurable diseases are supposed to die before reproduction. This is a helpful mechanism.

Christian: The five-year-old who goes to Heaven for 1,000,000 years of joyful life will account the suffering and sickness as lightweight:

2 Cor 4: "For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

You are about as subtle as a one-legged pink elephant.

Naturalist: Death is unavoidable, but life is an incredible gift. I'll make the most of mine. I'm thankful to be here.

Christian: Death scares the crap out of me. I can't imagine not existing even though I didn't exist at all up until this century. Heaven heaven heaven heaven heaven heaven...

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-08-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 01:36 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(13-08-2013 01:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Naturalist: There is no guilt, really, so please do not make posts that ascribe the motivation of guilt, or a lack of guilt, to any human interaction. Further, pain is imperfection, despite the fact that I agree pain is important to evolutionary behavior as a naturalist, so why didn't God make a perfect universe to begin?

Reread that. You are pretending it said something different than it said, because you are being disingenuous.

(13-08-2013 01:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  [Realist:] ...so why didn't God make a perfect universe to begin?

[Make up a bunch of bullshitist]: He did.

No, he didn't.
I guess I won that argument...that was easy enough.

Naturalist: You are being disingenuous. I wasn't saying guilt isn't real. I was merely objecting to your incest guilt analogy. I believe I suffer guilt the same as any religious person and that guilt is a natural, evolved emotion. Also, you are making up BS.

Christian: Thanks for admitting we both feel guilt. Also, I didn't make up BS. I answered your logical, reasonable objection, and insightful input that God should have made a better creation with the already-granted apologetic that He most certainly did. Even God agrees with you.
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13-08-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Two children come running out of a burning house. Both have harsh 2nd degree burns and smoke inhalation damage to their lungs.
They are frightened and confused running as fast as they can.

One runs north into the woods and the other runs south toward a nearby farm house.
At the house, the child is met by two caring adults who phone for help and try to tend to the child's wounds as best as they can to help reduce the suffering and help reduce the pain.

The child in the woods is in a great deal of pain, crying and hurting. This child is lost and alone and is now growing cold from the weather.
This child is suffering because there are no caring beings who are aware of this child's suffering.
If any human was aware of it, they would take steps to reduce that suffering and help the child as much as possible.

Children don't have to suffer when there are beings who are aware of the suffering and who are able to reduce the suffering.
There are times that we as human beings cannot stop the pain. We try our best to make a child as comfortable and painless as possible when they are suffering but with some cases, there isn't much we can do.

When someone invents a god who is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then if that god exists, there should be NO suffering
because that being would a) be aware of the suffering b) have the ability to reduce the suffering and c) actually gives a damn if someone is suffering.

So in many peoples minds, anyone's suffering, let alone a child's suffering means that no such being, we call god, exists.

You are absolutely, positively correct IMO. With one caveat, in this sort of example, it is always stated that God is perfectly loving, while never stated that God is perfectly just. If I deserve Hell for my sin, why do I any less deserve a cold, influenza or AIDS?

Now, we can go off on a tangent about whether children sin or not. Or whether we deserve to live in a chaotic universe because of the Adamic fall. But I'd rather we stay on point.

Naturalist: Come to think of it, I really don't have a good reason why children should suffer, since I hate such suffering. I think Evolution screwed up here. Oh wait, let's blame it on a capricious God--if such exists.

Christian: Are you sure?
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